Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

FLORIDA UPDATE

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What you should know about Tuesday's vote on evolution
(Leslie Postal, Orlando Sentinel, February 18, 2008)

Florida's State Board of Education is to vote on proposed new science standards at its meeting Tuesday, including a first-time proposal that would require Florida students to learn about evolution. The standards serve as a statewide blueprint for science education, but the evolution component has generated a loud and passionate debate.

Q. Why is Florida revamping its science standards ?

A. Experts say current standards are weak and do not prepare students well for college or careers in technology. Florida got an F on a national review of science standards in 2005, and students lag on national and state science tests.

Q. How are the new standards different from the existing ones?

A. They aim to give deeper understanding of key "big ideas," rather than cursory knowledge of lots of facts. The number of "benchmarks" -- what students should know by the end of the year -- has shrunk, on average, from 67 to 31 per grade.

Why have the changes become controversial?

Because of evolution. The word isn't used in the current standards, though its concepts are listed. The new standards make it a "big idea." They say evolution is "the organizing principle of life science" and is "supported by multiple forms of evidence." One version of the changes, however, proposes putting "the scientific theory of" in front of "evolution," a change that might placate some opponents.

Isn't evolution taught in public schools already?

Yes, but how it is taught varies. In Orange County, teachers described the evolution debate as a "nonissue" because the subject already is taught fully, particularly in advanced high-school classes. But in Taylor County in North Florida, the superintendent said evolution is viewed as a "theory," so other ideas about how life evolved also are discussed.

Why do some people oppose describing evolution the way the new standards do?

They say the new standards treat evolution -- the idea that all living things share a common ancestry -- as a fact, and that clashes with their religious convictions or their personal beliefs that evolution has not been proved. They say students can learn about evolution but want it presented with "strengths and weaknesses." Some think creationism and intelligent design have merit, too.

Who is opposed?

Many people, including school board members in a number of North Florida counties, parents, the Christian Coalition of Florida and the Florida Family Policy Council.

Who is in favor?

Also many people, including parents, public-school science teachers, science professors at Florida universities and the Florida Academy of Sciences.

Why do advocates want these new standards?

The scientists and science teachers who devised the standards say evolution is fundamental to modern biology and a scientific theory that has been tested numerous times. They say there are no other scientific theories for how life on earth evolved. Creationism and intelligent design are religious beliefs they say cannot share space in science class. They also say Florida needs top-notch science standards to improve its schools and beef up economic-development efforts.

Is it a battle of religion vs. science?

Not necessarily. Though many opponents say evolution runs counter to their religious beliefs, many of those in favor say they are religious and find no conflict between evolution and their faith. Nationally, the Clergy Letter Project has collected signatures from more than 11,000 Christian clergy who say "evolution is a foundational scientific truth." On the other hand, many of those pressing Florida's board to reject the new standards are members of Christian organizations or churches.

If they are adopted, how will that change my child's education?

School districts will rewrite lesson plans to conform to the new standards, textbooks will be updated and the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test will be revised so students are tested on the new requirements. Students take science FCAT exams in fifth, eighth and 11th grades.

When is the vote on Florida's new science standards?

The meeting starts at 8:30 a.m. Tuesday at the Capitol in Tallahassee.

Can I attend?

Yes, it's a public meeting.

Can I tell board members my views?

Possibly. The board will take an hour of public comment before its vote, with speakers signed up starting at 8 a.m. The board plans to balance the speakers, with a maximum of 10 people speaking for the new standards and 10 people speaking against.

Can I watch the meeting from Central Florida?

Yes. The meeting will be streamed live at OrlandoSentinel.com.

Who are the board members?

The seven appointed board members include retired educators, an attorney, a physician and a business executive. Some were appointed by former Gov. Jeb Bush, others by Gov. Charlie Crist.

Have they made their views on this issue public?

Two board members have said they are in favor, a third has said she is opposed and the others have not said.

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The Home School Legal Defense Association provides legal services to defend families who are targeted by local school administrators and social workers for prosecution for various 'offenses' which usually turn out to be non-existent.

They also work to promote legislation that allows homeschooling families the freedom to direct their children's education.

They also help acquire the materials and teaching resources that they need to teach the kids in accordance with the state mandates. Most home schooled rely upon tutors to teach the subjects that the parents areunqualified to do a decent job.

All in all, by their deeds, they are a lobby. Nothing wrong with that, the first amendment guarantees it . (Just as it does permit the entire home schooling process).

The spirit of how education "takes" is always with the guidance of parents who are commited to the education of their bambini. However, as Chum stated, when the schooling is chosen as a means to fix certain beliefs of the parents, then the kids are at a disadvantage in the whole area of socialization.

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wandel's post

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A. Experts say current standards are weak and do not prepare students well for college or careers in technology. Florida got an F on a national review of science standards in 2005, and students lag on national and state science tests.

I dont believe that, if this is truly the case, that the stand on "Evolution" is the reason that the schools suck. There gotta be a systemic rot in the whole school system that doesnt demand excellence, is probably made up with a "baby sitting" mentality, the teachers are probably incompetent , and the school's management is archaic.
Do the schools in question have access to computers ?

Is there a reading and math standard that prepares kids to understand the materials in science texts?

Do the school districts have science camps or science fairs?

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fm wrote-

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There gotta be a systemic rot in the whole school system that doesnt demand excellence, is probably made up with a "baby sitting" mentality, the teachers are probably incompetent , and the school's management is archaic.

You forgot the sunshine and the hot weather mores.

Still- you made a start.

Do you think they have got this debate going to hide these failings, buy them all more time in office and to have some more textbook revisions.

It's rather convenient I must say.

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wandeljw wrote:

FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
What you should know about Tuesday's vote on evolution
(Leslie Postal, Orlando Sentinel, February 18, 2008)

But in Taylor County in North Florida, the superintendent said evolution is viewed as a "theory," so other ideas about how life evolved also are discussed.

What "other" ideas are they discussing in Taylor County? Apparently Taylor County has made a monumental scientific breakthrough in biology and they are hiding it from the rest of the world. Either that, or they are using public school to indoctrinate children into religion. Do we want to guess which it is.

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ros-

It might have something to do with how this function of evolution without Christianity

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People first reached Florida at least 12,000 years ago. The rich variety of environments in prehistoric Florida supported a large number of plants and animals. The animal population included most mammals that we know today. In addition, many other large mammals that are now extinct (such as the saber-tooth tiger, mastodon, giant armadillo, and camel) roamed the land.

The Florida coastline along the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico was very different 12,000 years ago. The sea level was much lower than it is today. As a result, the Florida peninsula was more than twice as large as it is now. The people who inhabited Florida at that time were hunters and gatherers, who only rarely sought big game for food. Modern researchers think that their diet consisted of small animals, plants, nuts, and shellfish. These first Floridians settled in areas where a steady water supply, good stone resources for tool making, and firewood were available. Over the centuries, these native people developed complex cultures. During the period prior to contact with Europeans, native societies of the peninsula developed cultivated agriculture, traded with other groups in what is now the southeastern United States, and increased their social organization, reflected in large temple mounds and village complexes.

was changed into what you see today.

And in such a short time too in evolutionary terms.

Do you think the mutation known as Christianity was a flawed evolutionary step? It is a dramatic mutation and is still struggling against the residual primitivism inherent in human nature which you seemingly represent.

It is ironic that you use the resources developed by Christianity to attack it. Shouldn't you be throwing stones at it and dancing round a campfire after a nice lunch of small animals, plants, nuts, and shellfish.

Do anti-IDers watch TV? Shame on them.

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Chumly wrote:

To the extent that home-schoolers follow an open-minded, forward-thinking, empiricism-based curricula I take little issue with home schooling.

However, I do take exception to home schooling being used as a vehicle for religious indoctrination, and similar backward-thinking such as the primitive fantasy of ID.

let's hope that you aren't the one who gets to decide who is 'open-minded' and who is not.

you're not much about freedom there north of the border , are you

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farmerman wrote:

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The Home School Legal Defense Association provides legal services to defend families who are targeted by local school administrators and social workers for prosecution for various 'offenses' which usually turn out to be non-existent.

They also work to promote legislation that allows homeschooling families the freedom to direct their children's education.

They also help acquire the materials and teaching resources that they need to teach the kids in accordance with the state mandates. Most home schooled rely upon tutors to teach the subjects that the parents areunqualified to do a decent job.

All in all, by their deeds, they are a lobby. Nothing wrong with that, the first amendment guarantees it . (Just as it does permit the entire home schooling process).

The spirit of how education "takes" is always with the guidance of parents who are commited to the education of their bambini. However, as Chum stated, when the schooling is chosen as a means to fix certain beliefs of the parents, then the kids are at a disadvantage in the whole area of socialization.

The 'socialization' of the government schools i.e. drugs, violence, liberal politics, sexual predators licensed to teach, condoms for kindergarteners, homosexual indoctrination, psychological manipulation etc are often cited by homeschoolers (as well as those who send their kids to other private schools) as among their reasons for doing so.

The parents would rather the kids have their beliefs than those of the NEA and the Democratic party and Gene Simmons.

As far as 'most home schoolers relying on tutors' , if you have any evidence (you do believe in evidence don't you) that this is the case, present it.

Or more likely, just admit that it's your opinion, or the opinion of someone you read.

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does spendi ever make sense? Not if he can help it.

What was your source for that quote spender?

DO you think that Christianity magically arose among the tribes? or ws it perhaps introduced by sword and gun by the Conquistadores?

Youve purposely avoided ros' question, why?

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We have several home schooled students in our township. Im on the historical commission and the Planning Commission. so we have units of PAD and history that involve our members.We routinely have tutors from the high schools made available and who are being shunted around to those families. You assume that , with the paper resources available, the home schooling parents can do a competent job in teaching every subject. Thats poppycock. Tutors are part of the home school process in Pa. Why do you wish to deny it?? Its not even worth a point of argument. It is what it is.

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The 'socialization' of the government schools i.e. drugs, violence, liberal politics, sexual predators licensed to teach, condoms for kindergarteners, homosexual indoctrination, psychological manipulation etc are often cited by homeschoolers (as well as those who send their kids to other private schools) as among their reasons for doing so.

BTW, last year 2007 there were 2 mass murders in Lancaster county where kids murdered their families. The only thing they had in common ws that they were all home schooled. So much for the violence ploy.
Look, no school system is "SUperior", each has its goods and bads. My only experience with home schooling besides the township resources are that some kids get to be in my classes and (although Ive had statistically fewer because the Conservative home schooled are less likely to enroll in a geology program), those kids were generally good students. Ive had to flunk a few (Ive had to flunk a much larger group of public and private schooled because there were more of em).

The parading of the "scores " of home school kids as an example of the options "superiority" is just crap. The public schools have to report scores of kids with all abilitioes and they do. The public schhools MUST take all kinds and aptitudes. Parochial schools merely weed out the low performers (Im a product of a JEsuit education and I know how the system worked). Home SChooler parents dont HAVE to report the performances of those they dont wish to. If the kid passes a tests, he or she doesnt have to take the ACTS or SAT's. So that performance metric is bogus also.

As far as your above stement, you merely confirm my original point. That home schooling is mostly based upon the(often unreasonable) biases of the parents, not some overreaching desire for excellence for the kids.

A few years ago, we had one or two home schooled kids do SCience FAir projects for LAncaster County. The projects were pretty elementary when compared to the really high end projects prepared by kids from one science magnet school and two parochials.

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And what is wrong with tutors? As I previously posted, my great nephew's parents didn't feel qualified to teach advanced math and science and hired tutors to ensure that my great nephew had a good grounding in these subjects.

And it is always interesting that those who most oppose any religious influence of any kind being admitted into the public schools seem to be equally adament that it is some form of child abuse for kids to be receiving religious instruction at home. That's really open minded, don't you think?

This is a thread that was introduced as a discussion of ID versus Darwin, but has evolved into a mostly anti-ID exercise. So do the anti-IDers think that it is wrong for pro-ID parents to allow any reference to ID in a home schoolers curriculum?

Remember that overall, home schoolers are testing better in all disciplines than are public schooled or parochial schooled students as well as most non-parochial private schools. And the parochial and other private schools overall generally beat the public schools in most categories as well.

If it is the children we are concerned about, I don't see how open minded people cannot acknowledge the ramifications here.

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fm wrote-

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Youve purposely avoided ros' question, why?

I tried to answer this-

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What "other" ideas are they discussing in Taylor County? Apparently Taylor County has made a monumental scientific breakthrough in biology and they are hiding it from the rest of the world. Either that, or they are using public school to indoctrinate children into religion. Do we want to guess which it is.

I offered the quote from the History of Florida site as a possible "other" idea being discussed in Taylor County. I didn't say it was being of course.

ros's next sentence began with "Apparently" and justifiably detecting a mindless rant I passed it over.

Hence, his "either", being an "apparition", there remained the "or" of "using public school to indoctrinate children into religion."

I have been at some pains in my exchanges with Foxy to justify indoctrination in schools on the grounds that it is unavoidable in the absence of speak-your-weight machine declamation styles. The question of what to indoctrinate being a matter for democratic decision in the areas concerned.

On ros's last question we have no need to guess as one of the choices is an admitted apparition in his own conk and the other one is the tried and tested way of doing business in these matters and has proved itself to the satisfaction of undisgruntled persons who are grateful for the many benefits which the Christian way of life has delivered for our appreciation.

I am aware that media is incapable of reporting on these benefits as it finds it easier to market its products by singling out dramatic stories of dysfunction from wherever it can dredge them up from thus distorting the perceptions of those who hang onto its every word.

So--I don't quite see what you mean by blurting out that I purposely avoided ros's question.

Further, I suggested two other "ideas" that they might be discussing in Taylor County although not in public.

But as a "mad troll" I don't expect a fair hearing.

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The only place that Spendi and I are really at odds is a) I do support teaching of Natural Selection in science class and b) I don't consider providing children with as much knowledge as time and resources permits to be indoctrination.

My definition of indoctrination is to slant the teaching in such a way as to intentionally put a different point of view in a bad light and/or pushing obvious advocacy for a particular point of view. Of course another form of indoctrination is to forbid allowing the students to be exposed to a particular point of view.

To teach Darwin as absolute and indisputable fact is indoctrination. To teach ID as refuting Darwin is also indoctrination. And while Darwin belongs in science class and ID, not being science does not, to allow the two to nevertheless coexist peacefully is open mindedness and good education.

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fm wrote-

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Im on the historical commission and the Planning Commission.

I hope you don't treat anyone who dissents from your own views in the manner you consistently demonstrate on this site.

And if you don't I hope it isn't because you are anonymous on here and face to face in those meetings.

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Foxy wrote-

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And while Darwin belongs in science class and ID, not being science does not, to allow the two to nevertheless coexist peacefully is open mindedness and good education.

I disagree with that for reasons any careful viewer of this thread might well be sick of reading about.

What does "Darwin" in that context mean? Christianised Darwin or Darwin? If I gave a lecture on Darwin's theory to a hall full of lady members of school boards and young female journalists who took up their niche on entirely un-Darwinian principles I would expect the hall to be empty in short order with a few of the prettier things being carried out on stretchers having smelling salts applied to their delicate nostrils.

The city slickers who do use Darwinian processes could not be expected to attend such events as they are too simple for them and also because they will be too busy promoting their careers.

It is inconceivable to me that the human female, having intelligence, would be prepared to rely upon what the rest of the animal kingdom's females are limited to.

I think the statement is a platitude with no real meaning.

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fm wrote-

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Youve purposely avoided ros' question, why?

Having proved that ridiculous one is inclined to wonder whether anybody will ever count up the number of questions you have avoided fm?

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Foxfyre wrote:

So do the anti-IDers think that it is wrong for pro-ID parents to allow any reference to ID in a home schoolers curriculum?

Of course they do.

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farmerman wrote:

Tutors are part of the home school process in Pa. Why do you wish to deny it?? Its not even worth a point of argument. It is what it is.

No one denies that homeschools can and do use tutors. My question was can you document that 'most' do so, as you claimed? I doubt it.

farmerman wrote:

As far as your above stement, you merely confirm my original point. That home schooling is mostly based upon the(often unreasonable) biases of the parents, not some overreaching desire for excellence for the kids.

Again, your claim that 'mostly' the reasons for homeschooling involve socialization.

You imply that my statement supports you when it clearly does not. I stated that social concerns are 'among' the reasons that families choose this route. And that is the case.

farmerman wrote:

A few years ago, we had one or two home schooled kids do SCience FAir projects for LAncaster County. The projects were pretty elementary when compared to the really high end projects prepared by kids from one science magnet school and two parochials.

So what? So a homeschool on a shoestring budget cannot out-glitz public funded magnet schools.

No duh.

Perhaps the homeschool kid was one with little aptitude or interest in science but the parent encouraged him to give it a try anyway.

We really don't know. All we have is your (objective?) anecdotal recollection that they attended and were outspent.

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Are you even aware what a Science FAir is RL?. Its not a matter of money, Its usually a matter of the kids (or maybe with some parental help) wiles in presenting and solving a problem in science. The cream always floats to the top no matter where the kids are educated.

As a defender of nat selection in schools (taught with all its blemishes but without any theoretical alternative that cannot be evidenced), Ive said consistently in past posts that, should the parents not want their kids exposed to nat selection and instead some story of origins that's consistent with their religious beliefs, then they have the 2 options of CHARTER SCHOOLS (focused) and HOME SCHOOLING. Ive been consistent on that point so Im not sure who your Anti-IDjit point is aimed at foxfyre?

Im first and foremost a believer in the Constitution and, while I dont want even the hint of religion in my science class (even as a suggestion of a possible "alternative theory", or as a complaint of "viewpoint descrimination"), I do feel that, if you wish to indocttrinate your kids (and with RLs type of homeschooling, you are), you should have the freedom to do so, just do it in your own school system.

Our public schools are bad and do need help,of that there is no doubt, they are missing large areas of tools to present the kids . Most public schools do a shitty job of handling both ends of the academic spectra, they very bright and the challenged. Yet, they are mandated by laws that, in many states , go back to the mid 1800's, when most kids were educated at home anyway. Home schooling is not new, its not a wave, and its not unique. Its also not a superior way. IF the parents are the sole educators, then IMHO theyre worthiness is exhausted by the time the kids are in a 5th grade equivalent.

RL, Im not going to hunt around for some "link" and present it as evidence. I say that, from my own experience, I know of about 8 homeschool families in our township (and theres about another 20 who use a Charter SChool-which has been started as a state funded relief school for kids whose parents feel that they dont want their kids exposed to the worldliness of a rural school system). Of the 8 families ALL use tutors for math/science/and social studies and history. A assembly of certain children meet in the homes and the tutors make appointments to teach an entire similarly achieving group. In some cases, math for high school (algebra/pre calc) is presented to kids of several age groups but all about the same level of attainment.

Socialization, Ive found from my dealings, that the home schooled kids in our township appear less outgoing and seem to have some esteem issues. Is that me projecting? I dont know, but I do see the imprints of the parents value systems on the kids. As we say in parenting--The only things that you should endow to your kids are roots and wings.

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My question was can you document that 'most' do so, as you claimed? I doubt it.

I said that most homeschoolers use tutors when they cannot handle the subject by their own admitted inabilities as teachers. Is there a point you wish to deny? Whats the difference? I know that your style of argument tends to abandon the point and concentrate on the decimals.

Remember the entire homeschooling program is a developed curriculum by experienced professionals. Its not a slam bam approach wherein some well meaning parent decides to teach "Elemental spectroscopy" before the kid even knows what is a differential.
The approach in homeschooling is crafted in a stepwise fashion and the kid is given individual attention and doesnt move on until mastery of the last unit. SOme kids move on very quickly and can zip through units faster than parents can handle. Thus the need for tutors. The school districts are subsidizing the homeschooled by about 3500/student per year. The school gets the other 4000 to act as resource and mediator.Some tutors are actually freelancers who earn better as homeschool tutors than as teacxhers. The school districts dont complain cause its free money to them. The home school curriculum packages are all printed at one of the state prisons and textbooks are subsideized by the board of education which reviews them periodically.

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