Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

TEXAS UPDATE

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Power play by state school board (again)

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I apologise for my typos. I tried to correct them but wande's post, from which all we know is that a discussion took place and nothing about the real substance of it (just like my pal's lessons on fossils), prevented me.

I notice he made top of the page again and with only two minutes separating his post from mine after a long gap the suspicion must arise that he had it copied ready and waiting for someone to humiliate themselves by filling the bottom spot on the previous page. If the suspicion is justified, and credibilty is given to it from wande's previous record regarding the status considerations involved, Spengler's wisdom is amply shown in respect of megalopolitan mankind obsessively looking at himself in a similar manner that school board members can be seen to have done from how they are turned out for their photographs. And he had to be quick in case somebody else jumped him.

Look out kid-they keep it all hid. Bob Dylan.

So- errata

respective. repertory. Protagoras. megalopolitan.

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spendi, obviously you hold yourself in high esteem. Thats good for an assumption that anyone is even reading your sputum .Thats like an accordion player with a beeper. You can always hope.

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Well fm- I wouldn't like to see 100 year-old Ossie nail me to the wall either with his predictions.

Pretty stylish don't you think. Isn't it cottonweed that has detached itself from its roots that we see being blown hither and thither in those dusty Westerns.

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FLORIDA UPDATE

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North Florida weighing in against evolution
(By RON MATUS, St. Petersburg Times, January 24, 2008)

A growing number of North Florida superintendents and school boards are objecting to the state's proposed new science standards, saying the standards give too much credence to evolution and leave no room for alternative theories.

Evolution is "going to be taught as fact, and everyone knows it's not fact," said Dennis Bennett, the superintendent in Dixie County, west of Gainesville. "There's holes in it you can drive a truck through."

At least seven of Florida's 67 school boards - all north of Ocala - have passed opposition resolutions, according to the Florida Citizens for Science, a group that supports the standards and has been methodically searching board minutes.

That number could double by the time the state Board of Education votes on the standards Feb. 19, said Wayne Blanton, executive director of the Florida School Boards Association.

"It just shows the nature of Florida," Blanton said.

Dominated by Baptist churches and dotted with military bases, most of North Florida makes no bones about its political and cultural conservatism. Throw an election year into the mix, Blanton said, and it's no surprise that school officials in places like Bonifay and Macclenny are "going to try to do some things their constituents want."

The current science standards, put in place in 1996, do not mention the word "evolution" and instead refer to "changes over time." The proposed standards say evolution is "the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported by multiple forms of scientific evidence." If the Board of Education approves, students will be tested on them next year.

The opposition resolutions have passed in five rural counties - Baker, Madison, Taylor, Jackson and Holmes - and in two suburban counties next to Jacksonville: Clay and St. John's.

The board in Nassau County, just north of Jacksonville, is slated to vote on a resolution today. And while the Dixie board did not pass a resolution, Bennett said all five members raised concerns at a recent meeting.

"We just wanted to get it on the record that we're a Judeo-Christian community, and we believe in academic freedom," Bennett said.

Most of the resolutions have nearly identical wording. Some object to the characterization of evolution as something other than a "theory." Others ask that alternative theories be included.

"I'm a Christian. And I believe I was created by God, and that I didn't come from an amoeba or a monkey," said Ken Hall, a School Board member in Madison County, east of Tallahassee.

The St. John's resolution says the standards should "allow for balanced, objective and intellectually open instruction" that doesn't treat evolution as "dogmatic fact."

"Anybody with half a brain can see that natural selection takes place," said Beverly Slough, a St. John's board member who is president-elect of the Florida School Boards Association. "But to make great leaps from a fish to a man ... the fossil record doesn't support all that."

Polls suggest the public is split on evolution, but in the scientific community there is virtually no debate on the fundamental soundness of Charles Darwin's theory. Scores of scientific societies and organizations have issued statements in support of evolution, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers Association.

Decades of legal precedent also suggest the Board of Education would face an uphill court battle if it were to include alternative theories.

It is unclear how the board will vote. But board chairman T. Willard Fair said the recent resolutions would be considered along with other information.

"I haven't the slightest idea what would sway us" until the board debate begins, said Fair, who was appointed by then-Gov. Jeb Bush and reappointed by Gov. Charlie Crist.

If the board votes yes, the repercussions in North Florida are also unclear. Some opponents say parents will pull their children from public schools.

Hall, the Madison board member, said his wife is threatening to do just that with their daughter, but he's not going to let that happen. It'll be his daughter's duty to learn the material, and "my duty to tell her I don't necessarily believe that," he said.

"I'm not buying (evolution)," Hall continued. "But I'm not boycotting it either."

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Evolution is "going to be taught as fact, and everyone knows it's not fact," said Dennis Bennett, the superintendent in Dixie County, west of Gainesville. "There's holes in it you can drive a truck through

This by a District SUperintendent, who no doubt, has a Phd in education (hes A Ded-head). Many of the "trasditional colleges like liberty, Ave Maria and others) offer advanced degrees in Ed and they get jobs in Bible belt communities and continue the pursuits of Ned Ludd.

I can see a rapid growth in the home school industry. Its actually not a bad thing in areas where school boards are so conflicted. (Kids can tell where the holes are). Home schooling actually give kids a statistically better education in the "yeomean arts" and will get a kid into college . The problem is that , should a kid wish to go on to advanced study to do research in many areas of science , the kid will be weeded out unless they are very savvy and then turn the platter around on their parents and resume an open mind pursuit in a science curriculum. Ive had a few kids that were home schooled by "Traditionally thinking parents " who have been raised in a spirit where they see that their parents having these grudges against what they see as "godless communism". The kids arent always successfully indoctrinated by their folks and are good at playing "good little Fundmental CHristian" until they get to grad school.
Ive found that the home schooled kids are often taught more like we were taught in Catholic School, where we had intense classes of art appreciation and culture in the elementary grades.

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Most of the resolutions have nearly identical wording. Some object to the characterization of evolution as something other than a "theory." Others ask that alternative theories be included.

In what context do you think they use the word "Theory" and what other "Theories" are out there?? ID is the only such candidate (since YEC and OEC) have shown to be absent any detail. EVen ID isnt what wed consider a "Theory" , its merely a speculation based upon wannabe premises. ID has been scientificlly debunked in ALL its "scientific" areas (irreducible complexity, actual data implying design, etc). Its primary polished monkeys (Behe, Dembski, Ham etc) have all been leveled down to debate con artists with no backup in their data files.
I continue to graze the ID website that was rolled out a few years ago, lately Ive not been able to get on. Could it be that theyve shut it down cause it was too embarrasing a premise for real science minded folks to buy?

Whatever happens, the Fla case will probably lead to some new State SUpreme Court decree and then will be good for the entire home school industry. I dont think that the omnibus Senate Bill that limits payouts and enforces strictures on cost recoveries in civil cases that have to do with religion, will go anywhere. Its funny that, in order to win some relief in the ID cases that may result in this, youd have to admit, going in, that your case is entirely religious. Very Happy

. I wonder if they (the schoolboards) have thought this through??

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I have been telling you for three years that politically it is to do with the urban/rural problem.

It's a big theme in my last Spengler quote-

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The urban spirit turns to look at itself, in order to establish the proposition that there is no higher judgment-seat of knowing beyond itself

I should imagine that the "American Association for the Advancement of Science, the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Teachers Association." are all city based institutions and staffed with people who live in cities. Obviously they promote narcissism which is destructive.

Anyway wande- what does all this Florida stuff have to do with the topic?

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I may sound cynical about the home schoolers and infer that the kids are opportunistic , but Ive taught a few and was impressed at their almost amateurish (in its original mening) devotion to truth in science , as opposed to the demands of their parents .
Remember a home school kid is judged by two sets of standards, the state and their parents. The kids I had, viewed themselves as going through a stage of their development that didnt necessarilly exact a permamnent staus in their thinking. I believe we have a few of those types here on A2k (raised Fundmentalist and have become more free thinkers in the years post parental control)

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wandeljw wrote:

FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
North Florida weighing in against evolution
(By RON MATUS, St. Petersburg Times, January 24, 2008)

A growing number of North Florida superintendents and school boards are objecting to the state's proposed new science standards, saying the standards give too much credence to evolution and leave no room for alternative theories.

Evolution is "going to be taught as fact, and everyone knows it's not fact," said Dennis Bennett, the superintendent in Dixie County, west of Gainesville. "There's holes in it you can drive a truck through."

There are no alternative scientific theories, and there are no holes.

The only hole you can drive a truck through is the hole in this guy's head.

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farmerman wrote:

I may sound cynical about the home schoolers and infer that the kids are opportunistic , but Ive taught a few and was impressed at their almost amateurish (in its original mening) devotion to truth in science , as opposed to the demands of their parents .
Remember a home school kid is judged by two sets of standards, the state and their parents. The kids I had, viewed themselves as going through a stage of their development that didnt necessarilly exact a permamnent staus in their thinking. I believe we have a few of those types here on A2k (raised Fundmentalist and have become more free thinkers in the years post parental control)

Then there was the recent notorious case of a shooter who was allegedly gunned down by an armed woman in a Colorado church as he entered, having shot and killed some people in the parking lot. The coroner determined that he had taken his own life, but the heroine with her automatic defending the holy rollers was too good for the gun nuts to lose.

However, the relevance is that this boy was home-schooled, and by a father who happens to be a physician of high repute as a researcher. He had applied to a missionary organization, but was turned down. One day, he showed up there and gunned some people down, and the next day, he gunned down some people in the church parking lot, and then entered the "mega-church" itself. Apparently, he offed himself when the woman in the church threw down on him.

Anecdotal evidence is a bitch.

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Yes, the anecdotal evidence in this case is that the shooter was just what many A2Kers seem to wish for -- a youngster raised in a Christian home who decides NOT to follow the faith of his parents.

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The gunman believed to have killed four people at a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the school about three years ago and had been sending the place hate mail, police said in court papers Monday..............

"It appears that the suspect had been kicked out of the program three years prior and during the past few weeks had sent different forms of hate mail to the program and/or its director," Detective Bradley Pratt wrote.

Earlier in the day, a law enforcement source who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared that Murray "hated Christians."

from http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=489589

His online rants seem to echo some of the specific charges that are often heard on A2K, i.e. that religious people are to blame for the world's problems

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"You christians brought this on yourselves," Murray writes in his 452-word harangue. "I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill.

"Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

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He was hateful and murderous, what better mirror of the Lord of Hosts could one ask for?

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fm wrote-

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Remember a home school kid is judged by two sets of standards, the state and their parents. The kids I had, viewed themselves as going through a stage of their development that didnt necessarilly exact a permamnent staus in their thinking. I believe we have a few of those types here on A2k (raised Fundmentalist and have become more free thinkers in the years post parental control)

That's all very well if you assume that the state's standards and the parent's standards don't coincide except on this one issue. Which they roughly do as you can easily see from the way you can hardly get a quark's dick into the space between parties up for election. I can't anyway. The statement, while I agree it does bolster your perceived status a mite, makes the assumption that these standards are the only ones and the kids don't have any of their own. They may be devoted to the truth in science as a simple fascination with its tricks and wonders, such as knocking off a rabbit so that the kids could have a look into its stomach in a project about rates of digestion, but it soon pales as they move up into the middle reaches of the lower levels of the pyramid that is Science. They are devoted to the truth in science when you want them to be and not all the time and so you have a tautology on your hands. Five years of algebra and they still can't find "x". Science is great. In labs boiling up beakers of coloured water instead of in bloody desks and having a few pranks when Sir has his reading glasses on with the older girls. And there's "Field Trips". A bus is needed. Hired off a fellow citizen. There's back seats on buses. Field trips are great. If your kids are really cynical, and I agree on that, they could easily become devoted to the truth in science in mixed school's higher grades. The potential scientist among them is the one who knows how to make stink-bombs, is gawky and is a week ahead of the teacher having discovered from his father which book the teacher is using.

Alas I went to an all boys school. There we were asked at 14 to choose between Science or Arts. I tossed up. It made no difference to me. I was only thinking about being out of it. It was whispered that if you got into Sixth Form science, 17/18, by which time I'd be gone, you did "calculus" which was a funny word as it was like incubus and succubus and conjures up the idea that Science and the Devil are best buddies and and into the temptation business preying on human weakess and all that bag about Science being the work of the Devil and the Faust legend from which our Culture takes its name. That's why it was whispered I think. Strange. Egg-head stuff.

I got into science through a job advert later when I had hummed and aahed over whether to go back for the Sixth Form long enough to try Mum's patience but I did manage to extend the holidays a few weeks. I only saw the ad when she stuck it in my face. I didn't read newspapers.

Your kids might be aware of the demands of the future which they are reading out of other sources besides state and parent's standards and are ready to not let anything at all acquire a "permanent status in their thinking". All this talk of financial collapse, global meltdown, nuclear devastation, deadly viruses is going to cause them to do exactly that.

Who's standards are going to be any use if any of those happen. And they are bombarded with it. Their songsters sing it.

You're rowing your boat ashore fm.

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There apparently is no monopoly on insanity by folks of any ethical code. (It does seem though that, in accordance with spewndis contributions, the majority of the " mass shooters" are rural or suburban).

I guess that there will be some sidebar re" the homeschooled missionary drop-out murderer, what it exactly proves Im not sure but it will, no doubt keep rl busy.

There are a surpisingly large amount of kids in grad schools and in the sciences whod been raised Fundamental and whove had a revelation re: the value and testability of evidence and the phenomenological determinism explicit in most sciences.

"Its hard to keep em staying down on the farm, after theyve had PG" (physical geology)

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I have no dog in the fight, and was just having a little jab at FM about anecdotal evidence. However, it is no surprise to see "real life" ride in on his white charger to defend the "virtue" of christianity.

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fm wrote-

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Ive found that the home schooled kids are often taught more like we were taught in Catholic School, where we had intense classes of art appreciation and culture in the elementary grades.

My fossil expert in the pub again.

It is highly likely that if the school did intense classes of art appreciation and culture in the elementary grades you would have had intense classes of art appreciation and culture in the elementary grades. It stands to reason.

What did you learn about these subjects or is it simply that having been unavoidably exposed to intense classes of art appreciation and culture in the elementary grades is sufficient unto itself to impress us and have us think, by an osmotic process, which you might remember requires a semi-permeable membrane, that you are fully cogniscent of artistic and cultural principles or that your sentence just means nothing particularly interesting without assuming our having been in similar situations is of no account.

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Well, it has taught me that there is a standard and a metric for cultural communication. SO whats your point brewboy.

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fm wrote-

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Its funny that, in order to win some relief in the ID cases that may result in this, youd have to admit, going in, that your case is entirely religious.

Would you mind expanding on that fm. I'm not sure what you mean.

Do you mean anything like in order to be a candidate in the November election, a lot of past relief there up that greasy pole, you have to admit, going in, that you are religious and that anyone who is religious is entirely religious.

I assume you mean Christian by religious.

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fm wrote-

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Well, it has taught me that there is a standard and a metric for cultural communication. SO whats your point brewboy.

The usual one. That you are a devout Christian at bottom and all this anti-ID baloney is a part of a constructed persona designed to present yourself to the world in a fashion you think is superior to that of an average chap. Like make-up.

And you can't complain about me saying that after you referred to some other chaps as "polished monkeys". Not unless you demand sole use of the megaphone.

Anyone with a reasonable sense of artistic appreciation would compare the polish.

And again my fossil expert in the pub returns, and so soon to.

We have all been taught a " standard and metric for cultural communication". Where's the beef. What standard-what metric. Every school gives every kid, even in bush schools, a standard and a metric of cultural communication. We can't judge its value relative to others on that statement. So why make it? Because it sounds posh I suppose. Not to me though. It sounds stupid to me. It has to be stupid because it must assume we are stupid and to do that you have to be really stupid. It's only clever if you have tanks at your disposal.

By "It" I presume you mean your school. But you had other educational influences. Sometimes conflicting with your standards and metric derived from there.

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fm wrote-

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"Its hard to keep em staying down on the farm, after theyve had PG" (physical geology)

And when they have all joined PG, as they must if it's hard to stay down on the farm, and there are no rubes left, then what?

And I said nothing about any crazed shooter. Nor would I? It's an incident. I wouldn't dream of assuming I knew what had driven someone over the edge. You can't get much more egotistical than going in for such lax and sloppy thinking.

Any idea about mass shooters being rural or urban are entirely in your own head.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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