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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 1 Jan, 2008 04:08 pm
Oh- it's just an old English expression. Ask somebody who looks a bit streetwise.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 08:08 am
Just look at this carefully dear viewer.

I wrote-

Quote:
Oswald Spengler, in discussing the decisive influence of the Gothic north on the Renaissance in the 15th and 16th centuries, thus finally emancipating the west from Byzantium, he has this to say-

Quote:
It was just then, too, that Nicolaus Cusanus, Cardinal and Bishop of Brixen (1401--1464), brought into mathematics the "infinitessimal" principle, that contrapuntal method of number which he reached by deduction from the idea of God as Infinite Being. It was from Nicolaus of Cusa that Liebniz received the decisive impulse that led him to work out his differential calculus; and thus was forged the weapon with which dynamic, Baroque, Newtonian, physics definitely overcame the static idea characteristic of the Southern physics that reaches a hand to Archimedes and is still effective even in Galileo.


So you see--Religion and Science are connected umbilically. In the West I mean.

Incidentally- In one of the gospels I read during the Christmas period Jesus likens earthly existence to a bolt of lightning in the context of the infinite.

"What does this mean master?" they muttered. The Classical world punished public discussion of the infinite and the infinitessimal with death which is why "the streets of Rome are filled with rubble and ancient footprints everywhere."

And to explain to the rabble why anyone who discusses the infinite is being put to death would consitute a discussion of the infinite.

Maybe the good Bishop had been thinking of that passage. Maybe everytime you switch the light on you shoud say "Thank you Jesus".

Instead you pull him to pieces and trash his works and here you are doing a lot more than just switching lghts on.


Now--take a look at wande's signature.

Quote:
The better theory is the one that explains more blah blah---
Karl Popper (1902-1994)


By saying my posts are "tired and predictable" in one sweet easy and self-flattering breath wande passes over that post.

Which goes to show that the theory, which I put together myself and sketched in that post, is not of the slightest interest to him. Nor to any of the other anti-IDers either, who only know how to blurt.

And if that isn't a fascinating theory I don't know what is. I have hardly stopped thinking about it since I dreamed it up out of certain connections in my noggin. The umbilical connection between Christianity and Western science as I have maintained since the start.

Bang on topic. Nothing else is on topic compared to that. The invention of our Culture. The only known Culture to have not gone tits up yet.

And struggling all the while in its birth pangs, infancy and adolesences with the historical psuedomorphoses of which there was much to choose from bearing in mind the political accomodations which had to be made either by war or diplomacy.

It's like inventing the micro-chip. Once the use of the micro-chip reaches a certain level, which it now has, it becomes taken for granted. There's no sense of wonder any longer. No sense that when the "Submit" is pressed those little chips, or whatever they call them now, are all busily at work along circuits which a couple of blokes in the pub help look after and which would have mesmerised the whole of Classical philosophy.

It's like forgetting who you are. A thing I try to avoid.

No--wande's signature is like a coffee-table book designed to facilitate the impressing of a visitor with the idea that one is up-to-speed on the scientific front. I'll bet money he hasn't read a Popper book.

fm at least sounds like he's fighting an interdepartmental battle somewhere deep but the rest are poseurs.

And anybody who thinks they know anything about science, and the same applies to those ladies who popped up in wande's recent "UPDATE"" (BREAKING NEWS), has been suitably impressd.

Not me though. I've seen plenty of coffee-table books in my time. Whatever disguise they wear I can see them a mile off.

The assertion technique is a dead giveaway.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 09:39 am
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

A coalition of 17 organizations, including the National Academy of Sciences, the American Institute of Physics, and the National Science Teachers Association, is calling on the scientific community to become more involved in the promotion of science education, including evolution.

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

"In an age when people have benefited so greatly from science and reason, it is ironic that some still reject the tools that have afforded them the privilege to reject them," says Gerald Weissmann, MD, Editor-in-Chief of The FASEB Journal.

The article is based on a national survey of 1,000 likely U.S. voters. Survey respondents were queried on their attitudes toward science and scientists, their views on evolutionary science in the context of education, and their opinions regarding the means through which the scientific community can effectively bolster support for teaching evolution and related subjects. The survey revealed that respondents favored teaching evolution over creationism or intelligent design.

The survey also revealed that respondents were more interested in hearing about evolution from scientists, science teachers, and clergy than Supreme Court Justices, celebrities, or school board members. The survey also found that there is a relationship between people's understanding of science and their support for teaching evolution.

Respondents were asked three questions: one related to plate tectonics, one related to the proper use of antibiotics, and one related to prehistory. Those who accurately answered questions on these subjects were far more likely to support the teaching of evolution in schools.

"The bottom line is that the world is round, humans evolved from an extinct species, and Elvis is dead," Weissmann added. "This survey is a wake-up call for anyone who supports teaching information based on evidence rather than speculation or hope; people want to hear the truth, and they want to hear it from scientists."

The coalition of scientific societies that authored the article represent teachers, biologists, physicists, astronomers, chemists, and social scientists. These organizations include: American Association of Physics Teachers, American Astronomical Society, American Chemical Society, American Institute of Biological Sciences, American Institute of Physics, American Physical Society, American Physiological Society, American Society for Investigative Pathology, American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, American Society of Human Genetics, Biophysical Society, Consortium of Social Science Associations, Geological Society of America, Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, National Academy of Sciences, National Science Teachers Association, and Society for Developmental Biology.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 10:02 am
real life wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
The proposed changes, which would require that students recognize that fossil evidence is consistent with the idea that human beings evolved from earlier species


Rather than simply teaching that evolution is a scientific theory blah blah blah.....................

.....................the wording here makes it sound like the goal is mandating belief in it, not just understanding of the concept.


The evolution of species is not merely a 'concept'. It is a scientific theory for which there is abundant supporting evidence. A large part of that supporting evidence is found in the fossil record. The term 'evidence' is appropriate in this context because the fossil record is consistent with the theory of the evolution of species.
Quote:
In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#Science
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 11:19 am
It's not only fossils, but human fossils that voids creationism. The religionists just can't fathom that we are primates like monkeys.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 12:03 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 12:04 pm
Crikey!! c.i. got something right at last.

Not only can they not fathom such a bizarre idea but they never will and nobody will ever prove them wrong.

One can only assume that the idea that we are like monkeys could only come from someone who had observed monkeys and saw distinct similarities between them and us at the spiritual level and that is tantamount to saying that humans have no spirituality and that the word should be expunged from the language on the grounds that it is dangerous, superstitious nonsense.

One cannot "see" a movie by the same token. All one can see, just like it is all a monkey can see, are light patterns and a mesh of audio frequencies. Even a movie about monkeys.

And after all these pages we have Bernie trotting out-

Quote:
The evolution of species is not merely a 'concept'. It is a scientific theory for which there is abundant supporting evidence. A large part of that supporting evidence is found in the fossil record. The term 'evidence' is appropriate in this context because the fossil record is consistent with the theory of the evolution of species.


and c.i. trotting out-

Quote:
we are primates like monkeys.


A nice demonstration of how intellectual development takes place in these regions and all the while my little theory up above is ignored by people who only know the mantras, like altar boys, which are well known to every schoolkid in the country.

My coy interpretation of the "snake" motif being ignored as well and which they themselves brought up.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 12:16 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.


How trite. How utterly school board meeting prepared paper. Are you running for office ros. This is a science forum. All those things you wish to see taught are abstract concepts. They are coffee-table makeover fodder. Nice sounding words which make the bloke spouting them seem as if he knows what day it is. To gumps I mean.

He does think he is addressing gumps does our ros. His pomposity rings through every sentence he writes.

What is the plan of action ros with 50,000,000 school kids across an ethnic, economic, geographical and traditional diversity with political stalemate as a given. Briefly will do.

You are starting to sound like a mirror ranter. Anybody can say it. That is just about the only aspect of the project which is dead easy to do.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 01:30 pm
Are you getting enough oat bran in your diet spendi? you sound a bit Plugged up
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 01:54 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.


And whose fault is it, if they haven't been doing so?

It's not the creationists that are in charge of the science classrooms.

It's the evolutionists, and it's been that way for decades.

The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.

Evolutionists want indoctrination and mandated belief, not enquiring minds.

Evolutionists routinely assert that those who don't believe in evolution just don't understand it.

It is inconceivable to them that anyone could dissent.

And they won't tolerate it.

Science , by definition, is limited in it's scope of inquiry.

The modern hyper-naturalistic movement insists that ALL things must be provable scientifically, when in fact most events of everyday life cannot be proved scientifically.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 02:09 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Are you getting enough oat bran in your diet spendi? you sound a bit Plugged up



Never mind that tosh fm. What do you think of my theory up above. Why don't you try to falsify it and I'll defend it.

That's what discussions try to do.

I think I have a reasonable hypothesis explaining how the Bishop of Brixen came to his dramatic insight. Even Spengler doesn't offer that.

One minute I have verbal diarrhoea next I'm all plugged up. You'll be expecting the educational system to be run according to your moods next.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 02:31 pm
rl wrote-

Quote:
The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.


Yes--the teachers would end up with blustering bombast as their only defence just like the anti-IDers on here. And that's assuming the school hasn't been burnt down by outraged parents. Fundamentals indeed. Anti-IDers run from them like they would from a pack of wild dogs. Understandably too. They have glossed over the fact that some of their students are miles more intelligent than the teachers. Anti-IDers can't envisage anybody being more intelligent than they are. That's the underlying theme of everything they say.

Our government's dream of a giant database, which those close to the action refer to as a "single source of truth" , hopefully ironically, is a scientific dream. It will be run by scientists for the good of scientists. And even as it tries to get to its feet it leaks like a sieve.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 02:35 pm
Those ladies on the school boards discussing the fundamentals of evolution theory!! Cripes. I'd love to see that.

Meaningless generalities are all they seem to be able to manage.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 02:55 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.


And whose fault is it, if they haven't been doing so?

It's not the creationists that are in charge of the science classrooms.

It's the evolutionists, and it's been that way for decades.

The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.

Evolutionists want indoctrination and mandated belief, not enquiring minds.

Evolutionists routinely assert that those who don't believe in evolution just don't understand it.

It is inconceivable to them that anyone could dissent.

And they won't tolerate it.

Science , by definition, is limited in it's scope of inquiry.

The modern hyper-naturalistic movement insists that ALL things must be provable scientifically, when in fact most events of everyday life cannot be proved scientifically.




I was tought all of those things in several of my high school science classes (10 years ago).

I don't think he was saying that they AREN'T being teached....he was merely stating his agreement with teaching those fundamentals.

And I never had a science teacher that penalized a student for 'thinking' as you're suggesting evolutionists do.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 03:33 pm
real life wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.


And whose fault is it, if they haven't been doing so?

It's not the creationists that are in charge of the science classrooms.

Did I blame the creationists? No, I didn't. I didn't even imply it.

Are you getting paranoid now on top of everything else?

real life wrote:
Evolutionists routinely assert that those who don't believe in evolution just don't understand it.

That's because we haven't seen any creationists (at least on A2K) who demonstrate an understanding of the basic principles of evolution (and that includes you). Instead, you continue to ask questions which demonstrate your misunderstandings of the theory.

But here's your chance, tell us why the analogy of a tornado in a junkyard which constructs an airplane by chance, is NOT a valid analogy for the process of evolution.

(By the way, I've asked RL this question before, as a result of the exact same accusations on his part, and it was never answered before... not a big surprise to anyone, I'm sure).
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 04:32 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
But here's your chance, tell us why the analogy of a tornado in a junkyard which constructs an airplane by chance, is NOT a valid analogy for the process of evolution.

(By the way, I've asked RL this question before, as a result of the exact same accusations on his part, and it was never answered before... not a big surprise to anyone, I'm sure).


It doesn't surprise me. It's a stupid question. There is no life force or sexual selection in a tornado swept junkyard. It is no analogy at all. The idea is merely what Joyce called an epiphany and some call the Eureka moment.

It's like the question about how many angels can dance on a pinhead to which the answer is 10 to the power of 69.

You could see how the hydraulic fluid would get into the right pipes in a tornado and the bog rolls hung upon their dispensers I must say.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 04:44 pm
real life wrote
Quote:
The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.


I expect any request for you to lay out those 'fundamentals' not being taught will result in your avoidance of clear descriptions of what you apparently so clearly perceive.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 05:04 pm
blatham wrote:
real life wrote
Quote:
The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.


I expect any request for you to lay out those 'fundamentals' not being taught will result in your avoidance of clear descriptions of what you apparently so clearly perceive.


Did you bother to read the post that ros and I were discussing before you posted this embarrassment?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 05:15 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
Evolution Education Is A 'Must' Says Coalition Of Scientific And Teaching Organizations
(ScienceDaily, Jan. 2, 2008)

According to an article appearing in the January 2008 issue of The FASEB Journal, the introduction of "non-science," such as creationism and intelligent design, into science education will undermine the fundamentals of science education. Some of these fundamentals include using the scientific method, understanding how to reach scientific consensus, and distinguishing between scientific and nonscientific explanations of natural phenomena.

Now THOSE are worthy subjects to teach in a science class. I think all science classes should start with those fundamentals.


And whose fault is it, if they haven't been doing so?

It's not the creationists that are in charge of the science classrooms.

Did I blame the creationists? No, I didn't. I didn't even imply it.

Are you getting paranoid now on top of everything else?

real life wrote:
Evolutionists routinely assert that those who don't believe in evolution just don't understand it.

That's because we haven't seen any creationists (at least on A2K) who demonstrate an understanding of the basic principles of evolution (and that includes you). Instead, you continue to ask questions which demonstrate your misunderstandings of the theory.

But here's your chance, tell us why the analogy of a tornado in a junkyard which constructs an airplane by chance, is NOT a valid analogy for the process of evolution.

(By the way, I've asked RL this question before, as a result of the exact same accusations on his part, and it was never answered before... not a big surprise to anyone, I'm sure).


Perhaps you are referring to this post:

real life wrote:
Some also refer to evolution as a 'tornado in a junkyard producing a Boeing 747' type of an idea.

I don't disagree. Except it's a little too tame.

The idea (and don't tell me 'this isn't actually part of evolution' when it's all sold in one slick package as Big Bang/Abiogenesis/Evolution in the government controlled schools) that a living organism of ANY description could have assembled itself by chance is just too funny.

Please.

Believe it if you must, but don't ask us to consider it science.

Evolution at least can be dressed up for the high stage with the air of plausibility until the lights go back on.

Abiogenesis is the embarrassment that most evolutionists don't want to discuss.


to which you replied:

rosborne979 wrote:
Abiogenesis is not part of the basic theory of biological evolution. However, unlike most people who understand evolution, I will not dodge the obvious implication.

The basic foundational mechanism of evolution (natural selection) strongly implies that abiogenesis occured due to selection mechanisms at the chemical levels in similar fashion to biological evolution.


The desire of some evolutionists to avoid discussion of abiogenesis is very strong.

Who can forget when we were discussing the article by Shapiro, what fits it gave the evolutionary contingent here to see mainstream scientists referring to abiogenesis as 'the first step in evolution' ?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Wed 2 Jan, 2008 05:39 pm
real life wrote:
blatham wrote:
real life wrote
Quote:
The reason that evolutionists haven't insisted on teaching the fundamentals is that it would deadly to the theory of evolution if students were allowed to question it and dissect it.


I expect any request for you to lay out those 'fundamentals' not being taught will result in your avoidance of clear descriptions of what you apparently so clearly perceive.


Did you bother to read the post that ros and I were discussing before you posted this embarrassment?


You seem like a swell person, real life. Full to bursting with all that friendly and honest intellectual vigor that marks the truly open-minded and curious.

You mention abiogenesis above. An interesting question, to be sure, but quite irrelevant to whether, for example, all modern dogs can be traced back to the wolf or whether, for another example, we can breed corn plants such that the offspring will evolve towards disease resistance or whether, for a last example, whether there is a large fossil record supporting the model of human evolution from earlier homonid types.

So, I'll ask you again. Are you able to actually answer the question I've asked above or are you going to, once again, take the cowardly way out?
0 Replies
 
 

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