97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:36 pm
That's right. I agree with that. I might not have noticed had it not been pointed out. Thanks mapsie.

It's amazing what you can learn on A2K. It's why I joined.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:47 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Shall she remain neutral about heliocentrism?

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have no means to observe the sun. That it exists at all we attribute to rumor.
Here in Vancouver we have no means to observe much of anything due to sinocentrism.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sat 8 Dec, 2007 07:49 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Shall she remain neutral about heliocentrism?

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have no means to observe the sun. That it exists at all we attribute to rumor.


I grew up in the PNW; spent 10 years in Ilwaco, Washington (about 2 west of Portland/Vancouver). I love it up there, great area.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 04:21 am
It's a 4-dimensional space map. (some say [/I]n-dimensional). It's not an area. An area has no "up".

"Up there" was one of Andy Warhol's favourite expressions.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 09:41 am
spendius wrote:
It's a 4-dimensional space map. (some say [/I]n-dimensional). It's not an area. An area has no "up".

"Up there" was one of Andy Warhol's favourite expressions.


This I understand...I was speaking in laymen's terms.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 12:01 pm
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Debate Over Teaching Evolution Moves To Florida
(By BILL KACZOR, Associated Press, 08 Dec 2007)

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Florida's public school students for years have been studying "biological changes over time," but proposed revisions in state science standards for first time would use another term for that concept: evolution.

The new standards also would require more in-depth teaching of evolution and other topics while setting specific benchmarks for students to meet.

The pending changes have drawn a flood of public comment -- pro and con -- and are part of the national debate over how evolution should be taught. A Gallup poll released in June said the country is about evenly split over whether the theory of evolution is true.

Some people say they oppose the teaching of evolution or want schools to also teach religious ideas of creationism or intelligent design to explain the origins of life.

Other objectors, such as St. Augustine parent and education activist Kim Kendall, deny a religious motive but say they just want teachers to offer evidence that contradicts as well as supports evolution.

Kendall is organizing opposition to the standards developed by two committees of scientists, educators and other citizens. One panel framed the standards and the other wrote them.

"They're being very dogmatic," Kendall said. "They do need to continue to teach evolution, but they need to allow the teachers to teach both the faults and the supports of evolution."

Supporters say evidence for evolution is overwhelming and that it does not conflict with religious beliefs.

"We're looking at a scientific theory as opposed to a belief system," said Rick Ellenburg, Florida's 2008 teacher of the year. "I'm a religious person and I don't see a conflict in my life. Within the realm of what I teach it's pretty much a non-issue."

Ellenburg, who is Presbyterian, teaches science at Camelot Elementary School in Orlando and served on the committee that wrote the standards.

Arguments for inserting skepticism, rather than religious concepts, into evolution lessons emerged after a federal court ruling nearly two years ago struck down the teaching of intelligent design in Dover, Pa., biology classes, said Michael Ruse, director of Florida State University's program on the history and philosophy of science.

"This is strategy No. 4," Ruse said. He said it's a wedge issue seen as a step toward introducing religious ideas.

The first strategy for evolution opponents was to prohibit teaching it. In the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, a teacher was convicted of violating Tennessee's evolution ban although the verdict was overturned on a technicality. Courts, though, later ruled evolution could be taught.

The next strategy was to get the biblical account of creation taught as well, but courts rejected that, too, in the 1980s, Ruse said. Then the focus shifted to intelligent design, which holds the universe's order and complexity is so great science alone cannot explain it.

That strategy also hit a legal roadblock when the Dover judge ruled intelligent design was religion masquerading as science and teaching it in the public schools violated the separation of church and state.

Since then, evolution opponents have had other setbacks, including a decision by Ohio's school board to eliminate a passage in its science standards that critics said opened the door to teaching intelligent design.

The Kansas state board in February repealed guidelines questioning evolution, the fifth time in eight years its standards have changed as religious conservatives and a coalition of Democrats and moderate Republicans have traded power.

A suburban Atlanta school board also abandoned its effort to put stickers in high school science books saying evolution is "a theory, not a fact," and South Carolina's Board of Education rejected a proposal to require students to "critically analyze" evolution.

The Georgia and South Carolina cases are examples of the fourth strategy. Ruse described it as presenting evolution as an "iffy hypothesis" instead of what it really is -- a scientific theory "that's accepted like the Earth goes around the sun."

In Florida, old and new arguments alike are being made on a Department of Education Web site, at public hearings and in letters, phone calls and e-mails to members of the State Board of Education.

The board was expected to vote on the standards in January, but the decision likely will be put off until February to get in two more public hearings Jan. 3 in Jacksonville and Jan. 8 in Fort Lauderdale.

Board chairman T. Willard Fair, who heads the Urban League of Greater Miami, said he's never received more correspondence on a single issue, but he declined to discuss his views.

"I'm keeping a fairly open mind," said board member Donna Callaway, a retired Tallahassee middle school principal. She has a Southern Baptist background and her correspondence has been overwhelming against the evolution standards, but Callaway said she believes it should be taught in some manner.

Some Southern Baptist ministers have expressed opposition, but spokeswoman Lauren Urtel said the Florida Baptist Convention has taken no position and had no comment.

Board member Phoebe Raulerson, a former Okeechobee County school superintendent, said she couldn't comment because she hadn't yet examined the proposal and public comment.

Education Commissioner Eric Smith, who also serves on the board, said it would be inappropriate for him to comment until the standards are finalized.

At least one board member, though, strongly supports the standards.

"Evolution is well accepted in the scientific community as a fact," said Roberto "Bobby" Martinez, a Coral Gables lawyer. "This is not a discussion on religion."

The other three board members did not return telephone messages left at their homes or offices or were unable to schedule interviews.

Many supporters say the standards are compatible with their religious beliefs including Joe Wolf, a Presbyterian deacon from Winter Haven who also serves as president of Florida Citizens for Science.

"What we really support is the teaching of strong science," Wolf said. "Part of that has to be the teaching of evolution. Evolution is the foundation of biology."

The standards are being updated on a 10-year cycle that in the future will go to six years, but advocates say changes also are desperately needed to improve Florida's poor performance in science and prepare students to compete on a global level.

The Fordham Institute in 2005 gave the current standards an F, saying they are "sorely lacking in content." Florida students also score below the national average on college entrance tests and the gap has widened in recent years.

The present standards have been criticized for being "a mile wide and an inch deep," covering too many topics for students to fully understand them, education officials say. The new ones would be narrower but deeper.

The writing committee may make changes after reviewing public comment. Friday is the deadline for submissions to the Web site.
There was little dissent on evolution in the committees except for framer Fred Cutting, an aerospace engineer from Clearwater.

"Students should learn why some scientists give scientific critiques of standard models of neo-Darwinian evolution," he wrote in a letter to both committees.

Cutting has attended intelligent design meetings but said he's "not coming at this from a religious point of view."

The new standards are based on those in other states and nations considered leaders in teaching science.

"We're not talking about crazy, wacky stuff," said Sherry Southerland, associate professor of science education at Florida State University. "This is the fundamental science the rest of the world learns."

The science standards review Web site keeps the identity of people making comments secret so they will not feel intimidated, said Mary Jane Tappen, the Department of Education's math and science director.

Few seem to have held anything back. A couple opponents characterized the standards as "communistic" or the work of "liberal wackos." One supporter, though, urged that the state not "bow to the demands of these religious fanatics." Some suggested evolution be taught but continue to be called something else to avoid controversy.

As of Tuesday, 8,152 people -- nearly three-quarters of them educators -- had submitted comments to the site, where the split was heavily in support of the evolution standards.

Southerland, who served on the framing and writing committees, was dismayed evolution has overshadowed other parts of the standards she says are more important, but Tappen said the debate has been positive.

"It's a good thing that so many people are concerned about science," Tappen said. "At least we have their interest and they know we have new standards."
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 01:01 pm
Hey wandeljw,

Since you are the original poster on Apr 28, 2005 and the last poster as of today, and it's 955 days from the start date to the end date, how about a short point form summary of what you have learned?

A modest Canadian / international perspective would be interesting as well!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 01:23 pm
maporsche wrote:
blatham wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
blatham, It really isn't a rumor about Portland sunshine.

Here are the annual averages of sunshine in Portland by month.

PERCENT POSSIBLE SUNSHINE
46 28 38 48 52 57 56 69 66 62 44 28 23 48


Tourist bureau lies. There is no way that we have a 48% chance of experiencing sunlight on the 12th month.


there are 14 months listed?


Yes, the Pacific Northwest has two extra months of rainfall in spring just to drive home the that there really is no reason to go on.

But if that seems an unecessarily cruel and fickle trick on His part, let me point to His mercy. Obviously, such a situation leads to serious depression...serious to the extremity of some high percentage of locals deciding to find a high bridge from which to leap off. Yet very very few do it. The reason, who wants to go outside in this weather?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 01:26 pm
Chumly wrote:
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Shall she remain neutral about heliocentrism?

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have no means to observe the sun. That it exists at all we attribute to rumor.
Here in Vancouver we have no means to observe much of anything due to sinocentrism.


Not quite sure what to do with this one, chumly. Have you become discouraged, perhaps, that your favorite Surf 'n Turf restaurants changed ownership and are now all "Happy Lucky Money Noodleteria"?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 01:33 pm
maporsche wrote:
blatham wrote:
Quote:
Shall she remain neutral about heliocentrism?

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have no means to observe the sun. That it exists at all we attribute to rumor.


I grew up in the PNW; spent 10 years in Ilwaco, Washington (about 2 west of Portland/Vancouver). I love it up there, great area.


It's gorgeous, isn't it? For an outdoorsey sort like myself (if rather less nowadays) it has tons to offer aside from the waterfalls and green pretty stuff. Arts are well represented and supported here too. I suspect the ganja is pretty fine too but I'm yet working my way slowly down to the bottom of the our humidity-controlled Acme KiloKeep.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:02 pm
Chum-

I've learned that all the American literature I have read, and it's a lot, reflects a rosier glow of American intellectual capacities than seems to be apparent on this site.

wande quoted-

Quote:
The Kansas state board in February repealed guidelines questioning evolution, the fifth time in eight years its standards have changed as religious conservatives and a coalition of Democrats and moderate Republicans have traded power.


Pity the poor kids. Weep for them.

Quote:
a scientific theory "that's accepted like the Earth goes around the sun."


What's the argument about in that case?

Quote:
Evolution is the foundation of biology."


Not the foundation. The foundation is the creation of living things out of inorganic matter. That's the real Big Bang because without it the other Big Bang would not exist and neither would the idea of existing. The rest is suck-it-and-see description masquerading as science for status and commercial purposes. It's an easy subject you see.

And I have already explained the teleological nature of the argument that Florida gets an F because of the avoidance or downplaying of evolution theory in biology lessons and it is reasonable to suppose that anyone continuing to bang on about that teleology probably have their own personal reasons or agendas.

Quote:
"This is the fundamental science the rest of the world learns."


That is incorrect.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:12 pm
I have just read a few posts on page 1269 and I feel it is my duty to warn you that my presence on this site has been called into question by farmerman and a like-minded claque on the grounds that I was "off topic".

Whether or not his strictures are directed solely at me and do not apply to anyone he approves of I don't know but I thought I had better advise you all to either stay on topic or get tickling fm's twittering totalitarian ego like good little party lackeys are designed to do.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 02:43 pm
wandel--I find the article re: Florida a bit ironic in that one of the foci of the Creation+ID+Evolution be included in biology , should be taught in the schools of ST AUGUSTINE. As a lapsed Catholic (I am required by law to state this because Catholics arent considered Christians by the Majority)we were always taught the that the birth of the CAtholic creed of "Reason +Scripture=Catholicism, had resided in the teachings of ST Augustine.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 04:06 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
I am required by law to state this because Catholics arent considered Christians by the Majority


Under what circumstances are US citizens "required by law" to declare their religious affiliation.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 04:22 pm
Chumly wrote:
Hey wandeljw,

Since you are the original poster on Apr 28, 2005 and the last poster as of today, and it's 955 days from the start date to the end date, how about a short point form summary of what you have learned?

A modest Canadian / international perspective would be interesting as well!


Thanks, Chumly. I can only give a brief summary.

You have noticed (like I have) that creationist propaganda has appeared in Canada, Europe, and other countries. Islamic countries have a form of creationism also.

On this thread, I have tried to record a variety of the ways that advocates use to insinuate religious viewpoints into science education. I hope I have also shown ways to counter such attempts (lawsuits, elections, legislative actions). The scientific arguments against creationism have been provided by people with more expertise than I have (farmerman, rosborne, yourself, xingu, maporsche, patiodog, username, and others). The late Timberlandko provided a combination of scientific arguments and political arguments. Blatham, Setanta, JLNobody added to political and philosophical arguments. Spendius has become a lightning rod for the excessess of insinuating religion into everything.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 05:52 pm
spendi
Quote:
Under what circumstances are US citizens "required by law" to declare their religious affiliation.


nock nock:
"who's there?"

"Candy gram"

"I dont want a candy gram, but I could sure use a clue"
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 06:14 pm
fm-

I thought you said that you were "required by law" to declare your religious affiliation. If I misunderstood I apologise for wasting your time which I know is precious to you. Cleaning the sea-food out of the bowthrusters proved just how precious it is.

I just wondered if there are any circumstances where a US citizen is "required by law" to declare his or her religious orientation. Officially. I remember some fuss James Joyce had over this sort of thing at a frontier post in the old days.

If there are none then that's okay. It wasn't me who brought it up but now you have I was mildy interested.

I'll understand if you don't know even though it might turn the interesting portion of your St Augustine post into a load of bollocks.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 06:16 pm
then Id be right up there with you?

Shouldnt you be out getting slammed?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 06:53 pm
Hey wande--

You should be a bit expansive more often.

Your post made me laugh.

It was almost like a laugh caused by a seeing a chaste virgin showing a sign that she might like to join the girls behind the bikeshed. Mr Fielding wrung it out like a dishcloth in the hands of a telephone directory ripper in a strength competition decided by a moisturometer. He also delineated the opposite. And a few other things too. Stendhal tried to match it but he couldn't quite but it was a very worthy attempt. You need English girls to get it perfect.

You could do that in a game show. The finalists, after local, statewide qualifying rounds, have to take a standardised dishcloth in a sink after the pots have been washed and wring it out. After 30 seconds of wringing the 6 dishcloths are weighed on a standarised chemical balance and then put in six standardised microwave ovens for one minute on fast defrost (a word from our sponser here- a microwave manufacturer), and then they are weighed on the same chemical balances and the winner is the one who's dishcloth lost the least weight.

You should write more often wande.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Dec, 2007 06:59 pm
I never get slammed fm. Nicely oiled maybe but never slammed.

I have done it mind you and it's no good. I hate headaches and I realised that they were a message from my body to know where to draw the line.

One ought not to ignore messages from the body. That's why I lie on the couch a lot.
0 Replies
 
 

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