Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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Now, if the intelligent cause turns out to be supernatural, that's a determination that is outside of science. But that you need intelligence is not a determination that's outside of science

Thats just gobbleygook. Merely substitute the word Creation wherever "Intelligence" is stated. Same crap, different day.

Phil Johnsons been losing it lately

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fm- I just read his answers on Bernie's link and he seemed to me to present a reasonable argument.

He did point out that Creationists hate ID and that he has no time for them. I've pointed that out a good few times but your position is dependent, in the sense Mr Johnson uses that word, on linking them.

I think what he means by

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But that you need intelligence is not a determination that's outside of science

is that science should calculate the probability of throwing a load of inanimate matter into a pot and Shakespeare coming out of it. Or even a prairie dog.

And if Mr Johnson has made himself wealthy so have others. The two sides are on a winner. Neither can prove it's basic case so it can go on and on and on and will do. Which I have also pointed out.

You ought at least to be grateful to him for not expanding on "moral anarchy".

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FLORIDA UPDATE

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Opposing Sides Debate Change in Curriculum
(By Cary McMullen, The Ledger, November 16, 2007)

Both supporters and opponents of the biological theory of evolution are vocal about the prospect that it might be taught to Florida public school students. On Thursday evening, they got the chance to speak out.

About 40 people attended a public hearing at Jones High School in Orlando, hosted by the Florida Department of Education, to hear comments about proposed revisions to the Sunshine State Standards, which specify what students should be taught. The revisions would revamp the benchmarks for mathematics and science, and for the first time, the standards would explicitly require that the theory of evolution be taught in high school biology classes.

That drew praise and criticism. Of the 10 speakers who addressed the inclusion of evolution in the new standards, four supported the changes and six spoke against them.

Opponents repeatedly said evolution is unproven and that students need to hear alternatives, particularly the concept known as intelligent design, which holds that biological life is too complex to have evolved by chance through random changes over millennia and that a divine purpose guided the process.

"I firmly believe evolution should be taught, but I do have a big problem with it being taught exclusively," said Robert Rictor of Orlando, who identified himself as a father of three. "There are other theories out there that have great weight, and it seems to me they're poking holes in (evolution)."

But Joe Wolf, president of Florida Citizens for Science, said intelligent design is a religious concept, not a scientific theory.

"Teaching intelligent design, creationism, can only cause confusion in the minds of students. How can we expect students to learn science when we're teaching religion?" said Wolf, who identified himself as a Christian believer and a deacon in his church. "I accept evolution as the only current scientific theory that explains the natural world. I'm sick and tired of being told you can't accept evolution and be a Christian."

The theory of evolution teaches that all biological life developed and diversified through small changes over millions of years. It is opposed by some evangelical Christians and Orthodox Jews because they say it conflicts with a literal understanding of the biblical account of creation.

Polk County School Board member Kay Fields said earlier this week she objects to the inclusion of evolution in the new standards and wants to see intelligent design taught also.

But a federal court ruling in Pennsylvania in December 2005 may render that impossible. U.S. District Judge John Jones ruled that intelligent design is a religious rather than a scientific theory and that the school district in Dover, Pa., had violated a constitutional ban on teaching religion by including it in science classes.

The current Sunshine State Standards do not explicitly use the term evolution, stating instead that students should learn about "biological changes over time."

But in a presentation prior to receiving comments from the audience, Lance King, a secondary-school science specialist with the Department of Education, explained that the current standards, adopted in 1996, were one year overdue for revision and that students in Florida are lagging behind those in other states and countries. A study released this year by the National Assessment of Educational Progress showed that Florida ranks below the U.S. average in science proficiency and in the "low middle" compared with other countries, he said.

The new standards would have more coherence and rigor in math and science classes and would reduce the number of "grade level expectations" that teachers must cover in classrooms, allowing subjects to be covered in more depth.

The state Board of Education will vote in January whether to adopt the new standards.

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Well, than neither you nor BErnie have quite got it right. The ID movement (as its known in US today) grew from the post Edwards v Aguillard vacuum. Phil Johnson had been its author and was , himself a Creationist. So to try to bifurcate the two is just not following history.
Id, as first defined by Paley was a brick in the wall of Creationism. "Scientific Creationism" began with Flood GEology and then the Institute for SCientific Creationism. Many of the ISC were merely shuffling over to the discovery Institute. WHO, at the beginning of the 90's cleverly changed their name and their logo. Their original logo was the Michelangelo hand of god touching Adams finger, they quietly removed the hand of God and substituted a DNA helix. Then the change of the first textbook "Of Pandas and PEople' merely changed the words Creationism to Intelligent Design.

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Quote:

neither you nor BErnie

I'm not quite sure how my mug got added to this sentence. Could someone please photoshop an overlay of groucho eyebrows and shnoz.

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Well spendi said so , so it must be..... oh , wait.

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wande quoted-

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But in a presentation prior to receiving comments from the audience, Lance King, a secondary-school science specialist with the Department of Education, explained that the current standards, adopted in 1996, were one year overdue for revision and that students in Florida are lagging behind those in other states and countries. A study released this year by the National Assessment of Educational Progress showed that Florida ranks below the U.S. average in science proficiency and in the "low middle" compared with other countries, he said.

I have covered that point wande. It is a bald and unjustified assertion that the way science is taught in Florida has anything to do with the students there "lagging behind" and that is assuming they are lagging behind in assessments made by those with an anti-ID agenda.

A Sunshine State has many distractions from school work due to the well known effect of warmth on the nervous state of the organisms and the effects which it creates which are inhibited by the colder climates further north. The role models for the young wannabees are markedly different and it would by un-Darwinian for them to adapt to another environment which is a few thousand miles nearer the Arctic even if the ones who have adapted to that wish to shove their own adaptation up their arses.

And a meeting of 40 people is hardly worth mentioning in intellectual circles although I can understand The Ledger thinking it might. Only cranks turn up at such events is the impression I have.

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fm-

There's only one movement. It is that which seeks to weaken the claim to govern society of the anti-ID coalition bearing in mind that the coalition is holding a very good hand.

The fact that such a movement is split into various factions, and conservatives are notorious for not being good at establishing unity and a vanguard of dedicated followers, is neither here nor there.

It is the coalition which is trying to get its nose under the tent-flap as you like to characterise it. You have it arse about tit. The tent is Christian and has been for a very long time. "In God we trust". And most of us are quite satisfied with the result and it gets better every day and we are a bit wary of any new experiments under the command of the coalition especially when it goes into startled clam mode when asked to describe what we are being tempted to buy into.

The result may well be messy and easy to ridicule but that's the nature of this case.

You have not, as Mr Johnson says, convinced the public and you never will do with abstractions in which people are counters on your board game.

That statement by the teachers was the sort of thing Party members read out off printed instruction sheets.

I've seen scientific certainty go to people's heads and it's not a pretty sight.

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TEXAS UPDATE

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Texas State Board of Education Does End Run Around Anti-Censorship Law, Church and State Watchdog Group Says
(Texas Freedom Network Press Release, November 16, 2007)

The president of the Texas Freedom Network today called on the state attorney general to demand that the State Board of Education stop violating a law that prevents board members from censoring public school textbooks.

"The state board is clearly thumbing its nose at the law," TFN President Kathy Miller said. "A united faction of its most radical members is attempting an end run around the Legislature's clear intent to bar them from censoring textbooks. If they get away with it, then it's open season again on textbooks that teach about evolution and other topics that a majority of board members may have personal and political objections to."

Earlier today, the state board voted to reject a proposed mathematics textbook for third grade. Board members who voted to reject that textbook refused to give reasons for doing so. They claimed that the board is not required to say why it rejects any textbook. Yet under a law passed by the Legislature in 1995, Senate Bill 1, the state board may reject a textbook only if it fails to cover the state's curriculum standards, has factual errors, or fails to meet manufacturing requirements. Subsequent opinions from two state attorneys general - a Democrat and a Republican - have upheld those limits on the board's ability to control textbook content.

TFN's Miller said the issue at stake is about far more than the rejection of a single mathematics textbook today. TFN takes no position on whether that textbook should have been rejected.

"If the state board does not have to give a reason for rejecting a textbook, then the law is toothless," she said. "And if that's the case, then the content of our schoolchildren's textbooks will be based on the personal and political beliefs of whatever majority controls the state board. That's precisely what the Legislature acted to prevent in 1995."

Board member Cynthia Dunbar, R-Richmond, offered the motion to reject Texas Everyday Mathematics, published by Wright Group/McGraw Hill a division of McGraw Hill. She and others voting for the motion dismissed claims by other board members that the board was acting illegally by not providing reasons for rejecting the textbook.

The Legislature acted in 1995 after years in which board members demanded publishers make sometimes hundreds of politically motivated changes to their textbooks in order to gain approval. Local school districts may not use state money to purchase new textbooks unless the state board has approved those textbooks.

In today's vote, Dunbar was joined in voting to reject the math textbook by board chairman Don McLeroy, R-Bryan; and members David Bradley, R-Beaumont; Gail Lowe, R-Lampasas; Terri Leo, R-Spring; Barbara Cargill, R-The Woodlands; and Ken Mercer, R-San Antonio. All seven members are on the record as supporting efforts to water down discussion of evolution in public school science classes. Some have even voiced support in the past for teaching "intelligent design"/creationism alongside evolution.

Three other Republicans and three of the board's five Democrats voted against rejecting the mathematics textbook. One Democrat abstained, and another was absent.

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From what I remember part of the board is elected and part appointed by an elected Govenor.

So it's down to the voters. Isn't it?

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Have you a problem with that wande?

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wandeljw wrote:

TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Texas State Board of Education Does End Run Around Anti-Censorship Law, Church and State Watchdog Group Says
(Texas Freedom Network Press Release, November 16, 2007)

The president of the Texas Freedom Network today called on the state attorney general to demand that the State Board of Education stop violating a law that prevents board members from censoring public school textbooks.

"The state board is clearly thumbing its nose at the law," TFN President Kathy Miller said. "A united faction of its most radical members is attempting an end run around the Legislature's clear intent to bar them from censoring textbooks. If they get away with it, then it's open season again on textbooks that teach about evolution and other topics that a majority of board members may have personal and political objections to."

The Texas School Board has a larger affect on textbooks on a national level than most people realize.

Because Texas buys so many text books, the publishers tend to provide price incentives for the books Texas selects (due to large printing volumes), and other states often follow the price point.

The result is that what Texas selects, the rest of the nation often ends up using.

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farmerman wrote:

Well spendi said so , so it must be..... oh , wait.

fm

I just got around to watching the Nova show. "Crintelligent Designism" as transitional fossil. Now that's funny.

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It's too bad some people still believe the earth is flat.

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c.i.

I have asked for a definition of "flat" and there has been no offers.

I have already explained that "flat" is "curved" and there has been no dissent.

Recently too.

Are you not reading the thread? Just chipping in when the mood takes you like a trolling dilettante who has this deep need to set the nation's educational system to rights over breakfast.

Flat is an abstract concept. Are you still only up to Euclid?

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Quote:

I have asked for a definition of "flat" and there has been no offers.

I have already explained that "flat" is "curved" and there has been no dissent.

Recently too

''Good for you spendi. I must have had an urgent need for a haircut. Is your ""flat" a concept in the Einsteinan or the Airy arenas?

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No. It was a pub thought experiment. I explained it all before. Do you not keep up either?

The senses tell one, and according to Russell that's the only evidence we can really trust, a Sadean principle btb, that the earth is flat and that we are in the same spot when we wake up that we were when we went to bed. (Hey- there's 25 consecutive one syllable words there).

It's an affectation when you only countermand one of those. Countermanding both of them, as of course one really ought, causes a lot of people to feel a bit odd. To avoid that they force themselves by repetitive rote learning to think of the earth as flat and that they are not doing those high-speed loops everywhichway when leaning on the bar.

Even our conversation was enough to have one gentleman excusing himself and looking at us as if he had seen Satan's arseholly. But he's a musical gentleman and only drinks Coca-Cola. (With ice, a straw and one of those little brightly coloured plastic minature umbrellas to prevent anyone slipping an aphro into his glass.)

At one point a mildly pompous person referred, with a theatrical sweep of the arm, to the "left-hand side of the Universe". That cracked us all up. He wasn't being ironic. Or I don't think he was. You never know. You can hardly conceive of a left hand side of anything considering the high-speed loops everywhichway.

Sat. night is best though. We are often inspired on that night to fall to discussing the scientific aspects of the female constitution and the instinctive manner in which it is deployed. Ceasing to deploy it is known as "letting herself go". Believers in utopian ideals and spiritual notions regarding such an important matter generally drift away leaving just Vic and myself to keep the pure flag of Science flying. And we are not making any money out of it nor making ourselves popular.

Science is the play of disinterested curiosity undertaken for its own sake and as ladies are not equipt, and rightly so, with the capacity for that they merely derail scientific discussion. Hence a monastic order is required. It may be enforced by vows or may result from sheer exhaustion.

And to maintain the credibility of the former there needs to be religious ceremonials and rituals without which it would flounder and fail, as any sit-com using a priest or a vicar demonstrates, and thus scientific discussion would inevitably fall into the hands of the female sex (see instinct deployment) and only the direst consequences for Science then remain possibilities.

Why would evolution give the capacity for the play of the disinterested curiosity to ladies when it is no use to them and they can get at its advantages by pushing the burden on to men. Not all men mind you. It is quite a strain being objective and ladies have enough straining to do to keep the place going and they need a subjective attitude to the product of their loins given the state of the average product thereof which I gather there are some few million per year.

Anti-IDers are digging a pit for Science and Mr Dawkins has the best spade.

Why did Judge Jones land the Dover residents with a bill for $5 million. Was he worried that the plaintiffs had already taken evasive action with their assets and the Dover residents hadn't. Any scientist would at least consider the question and look at the evidence. Not the flannel. The money. The phewking facts. To discount the possibility requires a belief and one that is not backed up by the senses.

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spendius wrote:

c.i.

I have asked for a definition of "flat" and there has been no offers.

I will take a shot: the shape of your head? Smile

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Excellent. I like a witty, spirited young lady quite alarmingly.

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some spendi lingi

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was a pub thought experiment. I explained it all before. Do you not keep up either?

I dont drop back more than one page for you because you are a one trick act whose diversions most often have no poiint. Youre following section defined the Airy hypothesis of the geoid, wherein equidistance from any point on a sheroid defines parallelism and hence flat for any surface whose spherical geometry describes less than one second of arc. Of course we know that such is not the case for the entire planet. Even the AIry hypothesis recognizes that the geoid is an oblate sheroid. So your very point is rather infantile. But if it resorts to upholding your self-esteem, Im all in favor.

The rest of your post is drivvle and full of crap not worthy of comment , with the exception that Judge Jones "levied" a 5MM bill on Dover. The trial costs are incurred by the case. HAd the school board merely gone along and taught the science requirements applied to the states standards testing, it would have been no problem. The schoolboard, in its hubris , decided to challenge the constitutionality of ID and drew a lawsuit (which is the right of any citizen, and in this case was a "class Action" suit).
The school board lost and the costs , due to their "breathtaking inanity", were assumed.

The cost was more like 2 MM not 5 and the ACLU dropped its demand for any costs. The Tommy Moore lawcenter, still wanted its fees as did Dr Behe, (even though his performance , almost singlehandedly toppled the ID ers hopes for even a draw).
You Must be better informed if you wish to be part of a conversation in facts.

The center part of your last thread was a bit bi-polar sounding.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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