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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Nov, 2007 10:19 am
But, of course, you could just as easy say that he was sent here by our loving God to push things forward just a little bit by explaining some stuff about what's going on that hadn't been in the flipping curriculum that that load of shysters are squabbling over all the time so that they can make little ripples. The way evolution works only speeded up.

And that after losing a son in such circumstances as He did by going too fast God thought it better to do it in dribs and drabs thereafter and hence you have the roll-call of the greats to which Mr Mailer's name is now added.

I thought him egoless.

"If you're approached by somebody offering to do you some good--run!"

Priceless.

"If you're getting plenty nookie God must be rewarding you."

I haven't got his words right but that would never have bothered him.

A great guy and a great human being.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 10 Nov, 2007 12:03 pm
obviously said by someone whose never watched Mr Mailers performance and need for attention in a restaurant.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Nov, 2007 12:17 pm
Substance comes before form.

Do you not even allow that he might have been putting on an act. A sort of -"well- if they are all going to stare at me I might as well give them something to stare at to avoid them looking so stupid." It's your idea that his "performance" expressed a need for attention.

We read his books. They are a mine of useful information.

Your post draws attention to you as if there's some big deal in having actually been in the same restaurant as Mr Mailer when us poor suckers haven't. Who else was there? Just ordinary people I suppose.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 03:41 am
IN NYC its almost an impossibility NOT to be in the presence of celebrities in public places. All it takes is a facial memory that isnt (like yours) so addled , that one is able to recognize celebrities (including literary lions) quite easily.

Never a fan of MAiler, he , like you, was a master of the obvious and was quite predictable in his works. (eg Executioners song). His often strident political social commentary was ofetn much better said by others.
When accused of plagiarism, I did love his line.
"If I were to consider plagiarism, Id steal fom the greats like Shakespeare or Mellville, not from a hack like (accuser of the moment)"
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 04:24 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
IN NYC its almost an impossibility NOT to be in the presence of celebrities in public places.


That sounds like the "singularities" are ten-a-penny.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 08:02 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
All it takes is a facial memory that isnt (like yours) so addled , that one is able to recognize celebrities (including literary lions) quite easily.


You might offer some evidence of my addled memory. I can remember your embarrassing admissions on A2K.

And to be able to remember all those faces is definitely evidence of a large amount of time spent engaging with media mind directors, which is to say, sitting on your arse thinking you are doing something apart from being entertained the easy way so you can sit on your arse in restaurants (threatening places for men as Truffaut said) going "oooowwwee, ooowaah! Look there's Popsicle Partington--aren't we with it eh--what?

Quote:
Never a fan of MAiler, he , like you, was a master of the obvious and was quite predictable in his works. (eg Executioners song). His often strident political social commentary was ofetn much better said by others.


Tell me where else you have seen masturbatory burn-out explained so well or adultery justified in the manner any decent anti-IDer cannot help but approve of. The second half of Executioner's song is a tour-de-force and an unrivalled exposure of certain American practices.

Can you provide any citations for your statement that Mr Mailer's " often strident political commentary was often (sic) much better said by others" or is that merely another piece of self-reassuring brain gush?

It is impossible that his writings didn't meet with the approval of men. Feminists are another matter. And his reputation is sufficient evidence of that along with his book sales, his awards and the coverage of his passing away.

You're talking through your arse again fm and I'm astounded that no American is prepared to tell you so.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 08:14 am
When anyone goes around telling us how mgreat they are, I usually find a whining little man with his admitted inadequacies apparent in hi writing.
For one , his arguments with Gore Vidal were great theater but obviously staged. Mailer, and I can see why you appreciate him, has much in common wih your style in that he never knew what was going to issue forth from his mouth next. He suffered from buccal diahhrea.

As far as youre addled memory, One instance I recall was when you obviously c&p'd some scientific data and theory , then within a few pages you restruck your own posting (probably because you hadnt even read what you pasted up previously) .
Your in the dawn of your own senility spendi. Let it wash over you until you forget how to boot up.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 10:01 am
Evidence fm. That's what we need.

There's none there.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 10:12 am
See? you dont even remember your own posts.

your honor, I motion for dismissal.
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blatham
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 10:27 am
Motion granted.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 12:01 pm
It's a stitch-up.

Just then a bolt of lightning
Struck the courthouse outa shape
While everybody knelt to pray
The Drifter did escape.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 11 Nov, 2007 12:09 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
See? you dont even remember your own posts


Typical anti-ID tactics.

Make up some drivel about my weaknesses designed to prove that I'm senile and when asked to give a citation take that as proof that my memory is going and therefore it is proven that I am senile.

You must be habituated to some extremely uncritical audiences fm which I can understand you having searched out with such obvious care.

I was looking forward to responding to-

Quote:
One instance I recall was when you obviously c&p'd some scientific data and theory , then within a few pages you restruck your own posting (probably because you hadnt even read what you pasted up previously) .


How probably was "probably"?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 09:45 am
Quote:
Dover case presented in dramatic special
(By Rob Owen, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, November 13, 2007)

One of these days, the Dover, Pa., school board's attempt to insert creationism in a public school biology class will make a great movie. The story has drama, deception, perjury, shocking discoveries and colorful characters. Until that movie gets made, there's PBS's excellent "NOVA: Intelligent Design on Trial", a fascinating and gripping look at the trial and both sides of the issue.

I came to the "NOVA" special without a lot of knowledge about the case that began in Dover, York County, about 25 miles south of Harrisburg. I grew up believing what at the time seemed to be common acceptance: that what's in Genesis and the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive, even among those who regularly attend Sunday worship. But this was before the rise of the religious far right as a political force, back when strict, literal interpretations of the Bible seemed to be less pervasive.

I didn't know much about so-called "intelligent design" theory beyond its name and a sense that it's synonymous with creationism. So I went into the film willing to be persuaded that maybe there's some validity to intelligent design. If there is, those in favor of ID failed to prove it. And failed miserably.

That's what makes "Intelligent Design on Trial" such a thriller. As a legal exercise, the pro-evolution team presents a slam-dunk case; in the end, even a defense attorney says his losing side received a fair trial.

The controversy began when members of the Dover school board sought to introduce the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution in high school biology classes. Teachers objected, even to the reading of a short statement about intelligent design that also questioned evolution. Some parents objected, too, and a lawsuit was filed by parents of 11 students against the school district.

Upper St. Clair's Witold "Vic" Walczak, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Pennsylvania, joined with two other lawyers to lead the plaintiff's case, which set out to prove that ID is not science and that there were religious motivations in trying to get ID added to the curriculum.

"NOVA" explains that intelligent design posits that some things in nature are too complex to have evolved through a natural process of evolution. The theory is that an "intelligent agent" had a hand in creation, that "organisms poofed into existence," as one scientist notes derisively.

The film also lays out the basis for Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The key difference in the presentations is that there's a ton of science to support evolution. ID, on the other hand, is characterized by the supernatural rather than science.

"NOVA" uses re-enactments, generally not my favorite approach, to dramatize the courtroom scenes. But in this instance, I'm not sure there would have been a better way to do it. There's a lot of science to explain, and the re-enactments use court transcripts, ensuring that viewers see at least portions of the trial as they exist in the record.

In July, "NOVA" executive producer Paula S. Aspell acknowledged that tonight's "NOVA" does not start from a blank slate, weighing the virtues of intelligent design with those of evolution.

" 'NOVA' would never do that. We're a science series, and intelligent design is not a science," she said at a PBS press conference.

The program proves that conclusively. It explains that in science a "theory" is not synonymous with an idea or a notion, obliterating the question, "Why teach something as fact if it's just a theory?" A theory has the weight of a large body of study and testing behind it, one scientist explains. As one plaintiff's witness notes, the theory of gravitation is not a theory that's likely to be falsified.

The most devastating blow to those arguing in favor of ID was their own literature, which showed ID is an inherently religious proposition. Experts testifying on behalf of the plaintiffs even found two drafts of an ID textbook that used identical wording that only replaced "creation" with "intelligent design." In some portions of the text, use of a computer's search and replace function resulted in this oopsie: "creationists" became "design proponents." Talk about a smoking gun.

What's most disturbing is that some of these creationists, who claim to be Christians, sent death threats to the plaintiffs. Afterward, the trial's ruling federal judge, a Republican appointed by President Bush and recommended by former U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum, required protection due to threats, showing that terrorism is not exclusive to extremists from any one religious faith.

Oh, and my suggestion that the Dover case could make a good feature film? Walczak told me Paramount Pictures already is developing such a project.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 10:26 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
characterized by the supernatural rather than science.


And that's the precise point wande. We are supernatural aren't we? What sort of other life form would think of buying up a string of newspapers and TV companies in order to push a viewpoint which would increase its profits.

If Mr Owen works for such a company it ought to be pointed out so that we all know where we stand and can thus look at the matter scientifically as befits your thread.

Quote:
We're a science series, and intelligent design is not a science,"


I have not been challenged yet on my contention that ID is science, although not in the simplistic way Mr Owen means, and that science, as we now know it in popular usage, is not. And I used materialist theory to support that contention.

Citing one particulat text book is trivial. There's no smoking gun in any serious sense. And no "devasting blow". And the same goes for the "death threats" assuming there were any.

Quote:
those in favor of ID failed to prove it. And failed miserably.


They never even tried. They took a dive and the moolah. Good for business. Even the Pittsburg Post-Gazette is getting a dividend after all this time.

None of it goes anywhere near your original thread question.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 10:36 am
Time for spendi to remove his head from out his butt so he can see and hear. (Remember that communication is a two way street, unless youre just here to preach ). The entire ID issue was started by a bunch of religious loonies who would have their way into science classes.

NOVA TONITE 8PM EST--BE THERE!!.
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blatham
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 10:39 am
thanks, fm
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 11:36 am
I suppose it was too much to ask if any of us expected a response to my post.

It interests me what it must do to a mind to respond to communications in such an uncommunicative way for ever and ever. It must be like talking to yourself all the time even when giving the appearence of taking to others.

Why would I want to "be there". I gave up on standard American movies long ago.

And anyway- I would see it from a completely different point of view from those who sit there saying -"That's right" evertime something comes on they already agree with. I would examine the "set". I know the words are meaningless like fm's post.
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blatham
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 05:33 pm
Ain't no shortcuts

Only a fool in here would think he's got anything to prove.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 06:02 pm
I saw a few scenes from How To Marry A Millionaire.

It was like watching somebody take a leak after drinking the Black Sea after it had been metamorphosised into John Smith's Extra Smooth which we could do if we put our minds to it.

They say that anything you can think up the scientists can do. Eventually.

They couldn't make Penny Waterstone fancy -(fill in name of choice)- if they worked on it until the sun died.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 Nov, 2007 09:17 pm
have we been dipping into the vanilla extract again?
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