97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 4 Oct, 2007 08:58 am
DISCOVERY INSTITUTE UPDATE

Quote:
(Excerpted from "The Religious Right's New Tactics for Invading Public Schools", By Rob Boston, Church and State Magazine, October 4, 2007)

The courtroom defeat of "intelligent design" (ID) in Dover, Pa., two years ago left creationists reeling -- but not for long. To no one's surprise, groups that promote elevating theology over science have re-tooled for the umpteenth time and are again shopping their wares to the public schools.

The Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that promotes ID, has just published Explore Evolution, a textbook it is promoting to biology teachers nationwide. Despite its title, the book does not so much explore evolution as try to debunk it, relying, critics say, on the same old pseudo-scientific arguments that are stock in trade among the creationists.

Opponents of evolution have tried these tactics before. After the Supreme Court struck down a Louisiana law mandating "balanced treatment" between evolution and creationism, creationists began advocating the instruction of "evidence against evolution." This was simply young-Earth creationism with a new name.

The Discovery Institute's tactics are more sophisticated. The group does not endorse young-Earth creationism, for example. But critics say the organization's new book is yet another attempt to slip ID, a religiously grounded concept, into the schools.

"Explore Evolution is a real piece of work," Joshua Rosenau, public information project director for the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), said. "Everything from the author list to the content reveals the book's deep links with earlier generations of creationism, however hard they try to obscure that heritage."

The NCSE, based in Oakland, Calif., defends the teaching of evolution in public schools, and Rosenau recently reviewed for the group. He added, "Like previous creationist works, it attacks evolution with misrepresentations and misunderstandings, but where previous generations of textbooks claimed this as evidence of divine intervention, Explore Evolution leaves that leap to students and teachers. Needless to say, we have yet to identify any criticisms of evolution in the book which do not have a long history in the creationist literature."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Oct, 2007 01:21 pm
wande-

I don't know that the Discovery Institute is relevant to the topic you originally posted.

It strikes me, from what little I know, to be Gnostic. The Gnostics were wealthy as well.

By continually giving publicity to the Discovery Institute, rather than a chap leaning on the bar, and its doings, you are bolstering its credibilty because you are obviously suggesting that it is a serious source of religious inspiration.

One supposes it, as the paths of error are many and varied once the Papal authority is denied, to be a loose coalition of what were once Basilidians, Valentinians, Marcionates, Ebionites, Nazarenes and Lutherans and whatnot, each with its acolytes tailoring the minds of the seperate congregations to their convenience (or else) and with new modern American names. A sect for every condition. The opposite of "catholic". Nationalistic and with no sense of the universality of the "designer" for all mankind. And nothing to do with the Sermon on the Mount.

Such manifestations will be "re-tooling" for a lot more "umpteenth " times in the future with the central authority having been removed by your founding fathers and when Science is unable to answer the fundamental questions.

A sort of ratings chasing like with TV programmes.

A belief in the idea of an "intelligent designer" leads to some level of ascetic contemplation away from carnal temptations, which , as everyone knows, is how modern science was born. It is just as valid a belief as a belief in cold fusion, alien visitations, the big bang and that we can travel to the stars.

Isn't the idea that the evolutionary processes of nature are progressive based on the notion that Nature is an intelligent designer or are those processes degenerate as some say.

So if one changes one word--Nature- to God isn't the difference between intelligent design and evolution theory and science in general merely a matter of semantics.

The Gnostics of the 3rd and 4th Centuries, religions of the better off, also disturbed the peace and disgraced the name of religion but they were tolerated for a time because they helped rather than hindered the cause of Christianity in its strife with Pagan idolatry which had exhausted any potential for further development. Pagan idols were basically personifications, with multitudinous variants of the 7 deadly sins and their sub-divisions, and I have few qualms in guessing that most of those are rife inside the Discovery Institute. Pride and Vanity possibly reaching levels us mere mortals can only imagine. And even then we would have to be sober.

Gibbon wrote, way back in the 18th Century-

Quote:
The most learned of the fathers, by a very singular condescension, have imprudently admitted the sophistry of the Gnostics. Acknowledging that the literal sense is repugnant to every principle of faith as well as reason, they deem themselves secure and invulnerable behind the ample veil of allegory, which they carefully spread over every tender part of the Mosaic dispensation.


There is unlikely to be much in the Discovery Institute which inspires a love of virtue or restraint on the impetuosity of the passions.

I don't know why you keep banging on about them.

I was given to understand that there are almost 80 million catholics in the US. Is that right?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 5 Oct, 2007 08:49 am
COUNCIL OF EUROPE UPDATE

Quote:
European panel condemns creationism effort
(UPI, Oct. 5, 2007)

European lawmakers approved a report condemning efforts to teach creationism in schools, underscoring concern about an emerging socially conservative agenda.

Meeting in Strasbourg, France, Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe members approved, in a non-binding 48-25 vote, a report that criticizes creationism advocates for potentially sacrificing children's education "to impose religious dogma" and to promote "a radical return to the past," The International Herald Tribune reported Friday.

The report said creationism, a belief that a supreme being created life and the universe, was "an almost exclusively American phenomenon" but some of its tenets had migrated to Europe.

Denying pupils knowledge of various theories was "totally against children's educational interests," the report said. Creationism supporters endorse "a radical return to the past which could prove particularly harmful in the long term for all our societies," the report said.

Believers of a literal interpretation of the Bible joined people who accept the theory of evolution as "the result of a transcendent will, an 'intelligent design,' " the report said.

It also pointed to a Muslim version of creationism, highlighting a Turkish cleric's work, "The Atlas of Creation," that was distributed to schools in Belgium, France, Spain and Switzerland.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Oct, 2007 11:52 am
"non-binding". "potentially". "emerging socially conservative agenda" (shudder-shudder). "underscoring concern". "Meeting in Stasbourg" ( piss up and shag the secretary time). "radical return to the past" (which past?)
"Denying pupils knowledge of various theories" like Freud's, Reich's, Watson's, Eugenics, The Master Race. The Leisure Class. Armstrong's. Greer's.

Obviously the "How to get your name in the paper after a costly junket" Theory" will be okay.

And, last but not least, the old stand by in emergencies- "could prove particularly harmful".

"Joined people"

Hey up wande-- I hope this lot have nothing to do with language and communication.

Quote:
The report said creationism, a belief that a supreme being created life and the universe, was "an almost exclusively American phenomenon" but some of its tenets had migrated to Europe


How awful- importing American ideas.
0 Replies
 
ykw
 
  1  
Fri 5 Oct, 2007 11:54 am
Dear sirs,,, If diseases are in your veins,,, your screwed! Laughing


Btw,,, eh's NONE OF YOU WERE,,,, OR WILL EVER BE,,, PREGNANT,,,.!


Amen. Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Oct, 2007 11:56 am
I bow to your superior knowledge and experience on such difficult subjects.

Is pregnancy not chosen. That's the Greer theory.
0 Replies
 
ykw
 
  1  
Fri 5 Oct, 2007 12:01 pm
Cool Shocked Very Happy Confused Twisted Evil http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/636982/2/istockphoto_636982_thorn_tattoos.jpg Laughing

Amen.!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 7 Oct, 2007 05:26 pm
Quote:


With that in mind it may be permissible to remark that by embracing the faith, and it is a faith, of atheism, anti-IDers incur the guilt of an unnatural and possibly unpardonable offence.

By doing so, and how much more guilty they are by preaching it, they dissolve the sacred ties of custom and education, they violate the religious institutions of their country and gratuitously despise what their forefathers had believed as true and revered as sacred.

Every atheist rejects with contempt, as we have seen, the superstitions of his family, his hometown and his country which are symbolised at the highest level by the oft repeated expression "God bless America" and, lower down, by every good luck charm. prayer and pious wish.

Thus the whole community of atheists, at 6% an aggregate of 18 million, and an aggregate is the only word they could logically use, perforce must reject communion with this God, the leaders of their nation and mankind in general.

It is bootless to assert the rights of conscience and private judgement when the succour of that 92% is an essential condition of every aspect of the atheist's life. From the removal of his garbage to the very building blocks of his laboratory not to mention his presumed sexual privileges over which we will draw a veil of reticence as befits our sympathetic understanding.

While the position of the atheist may well excite pity, his logic, sanctified as it is by readings off his own instruments and by the measurements he chooses to make, or not to make, can never reach the understanding of the religious world of 280 million souls.

To the believers the attitude of the atheist is as much a matter of surprise, and often shock, as it would be if he conceived a novel disgust towards the manners, the dress and the language of his native country.

Such surprise can quickly turn to resentment and the preaching atheist may well, if he goes too far, be burdened by the charge of impiety and, as has happened in the past when an established religious worldview has been challenged, become subjected to persecution which he can hardly complain about when centres of atheism are known to have persecuted believers and hounded them from positions in various institutions.

Atheists have separated themselves, and glory in having done so, from the modes of superstition which are accepted in Christian societies and they offer no alternative for worship except themselves which is presumably why they expect their every assertion to be received as if from that supreme oracle of wisdom, Science.

The pure and sublime idea that the world we live in is a mere child of a chance physico/chemical reaction entirely escapes the conceptions of the Christian world which is at a loss to discover a spiritual focus in it which might be represented by a glorious symbol and associated with pomp, festivals, holidays and joyous celebrations with music and dancing and the usual accompanying consequences. If the infamous and much maligned Inquisition, maligned by assertions in the main, sought to extirpate enemies of joyous celebrations and such like on the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number it might not have been the force of evil it has often been said to be.

The sages of atheism who have elevated their minds above that of the common man simply refuse to contemplate that the prejudices of mankind
are a standard of truth or that their philosophical position is incapable of restraining the wanderings of the fancy or the visions of fanaticism (see other threads) once carefully worked out dogma, which does take into account the paucity of reason and the abundance of emotion in society, has been rejected.

They also fail to appreciate that the principle they stand upon, that everything is meaningless, is undermined by their own wild and grotesque enthusiasm, arrogance and airy speculations based on a sprinkling of "could be"s, which they presumably expect to pass unnoticed, thinking as they do that the rest of us are thick, as is quite usual with even the most barbarian of oracles.

Atheists have such an ignorance of the weakness of human reason as to defy the comprehension of any intelligent person unless their atheism is a trick of self delusion designed to allow them to feel a cut above the common run of humanity. An intellectual hair-style so to speak. Which would, of course, render it into a religious movement for the purpose of supplanting other religious movements in the management of society. Such an ignorance, profoundly unscientific as it self-evidently is, , can only be derived from an avid contemplation and deep admiration for their own capacities in that regard which would allow predictions of how they would manage society were they ever given the chance to be very easily made.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 7 Oct, 2007 05:41 pm
Hi ykw- welcome to our thread.

What's cooking in your neck of the woods?
0 Replies
 
ykw
 
  1  
Mon 8 Oct, 2007 12:36 am
You. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Mon 8 Oct, 2007 02:59 pm
You usually seem so quick to emphasize that ID isn't religion, that I'm surprised to see you equate anti-ID with anti-religion.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 8 Oct, 2007 03:12 pm
UC ADMISSIONS LAWSUIT UPDATE

Quote:
Religious-based education on trial
(By Lisa Anderson, Chicago Tribune, October 8, 2007)

Sarah Potter-Smith, a sophomore at Calvary Chapel Christian School, can't understand why anyone would think that learning any subject from a Christian perspective is inferior to a secular education.

"We learn just as much as the public schools around here do and, actually, we learn more. For example, we have to learn about evolution on top of creationism too," said the 15-year-old.

Calvary English teacher Shannon Jonker, 26, said the Christian perspective helps students identify the many religious and biblical themes in literature. "We're reading 'Frankenstein' right now, and there are allusions to the creation story," said Jonker, a 2002 graduate of University of California, Riverside.

The Christian perspective is why people send their children to a Christian school, said Robert Tyler, head of Advocates for Faith and Freedom and Calvary's lawyer in a controversial case against the University of California system.

In an unprecedented lawsuit that opens yet another front in the nation's culture wars, an association of Christian schools, including Calvary, charges that the admissions policy at the university unconstitutionally discriminates against them because they teach from a religious perspective.

The case offers a window into the deepening conviction of many conservative Christians that there is hostility to their faith in the public square and particularly in public schools. "This is just another example of what's happening on a much larger scale," said Tyler, who maintains that the university is attempting to secularize private Christian education.

The outcome of the suit could affect not only the college plans of thousands of students at California's some 800 religious high schools but the way curricula are developed and taught at religious secondary schools around the country. The case could go to trial in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles before the end of the year.

To ensure that regular course work will satisfy the admission requirements of the University of California system (UC), public and private high schools may submit for approval descriptions of the 14 core, or a-g, courses in math, science, history, English, foreign language and the arts, plus one elective course, that the system considers evidence of adequate preparation for an education at one of the 10 UC schools.

The Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI), lead plaintiff in the case, accuses UC of rejecting some of the core courses at their member schools primarily because they add a religious viewpoint to the standard course material taught at secular schools, a charge the university system vehemently denies. Viewpoint discrimination, on which the case pivots, is banned under the 1st Amendment. In this case, the plaintiffs charge that the university's a-g policy allows a "secular viewpoint" to be taught in core classes but not a religious viewpoint.

If UC continues to reject core courses, the plaintiffs assert that future graduates of their schools may not be eligible for admission to UC schools. "UC follows the policy of rejecting any course in any subject, even if it teaches standard content, if it adds teaching of the school's religious viewpoint," the plaintiffs claim in their legal filings.

"That statement simply is not true," said Christopher Patti, counsel for UC. "There is no prohibition on religious content in UC a-g courses," he said. "If the course adequately teaches the subject matter and adequately teaches the skills that students need in that subject, then the fact that it may also make reference to other theories doesn't disqualify it, even religious theories," he said.

He was referring to the charge that the university rejected core courses using textbooks by leading Christian publishers Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Book because of religious content. These included biology texts that presented evolution but also the biblical account of creation and intelligent design as alternative theories.

UC said it rejected such texts "not because they have religious content, but because they fail to meet the university's standards for effectively teaching the required subject matter." UC, which also has disapproved courses from secular and other religious schools, said the books might have been approved as supplementary instead of primary texts.

UC rejection of courses at ACSI high schools, including Calvary Chapel Christian School, began around 2004, said Pastor Des Starr, superintendent of Calvary, which is one of the plaintiffs in the suit, as are six of its present and former students.

Earlier, Starr said, the school had no problems meeting the UC requirements with many of the same or similar courses. Many Calvary graduates went on to successfully graduate from UC schools; nine more just entered in September. Patti, the UC counsel, said no major change had been made in the a-g requirements beyond the fact that "the process of reviewing has become more regularized and rigorous over time."

As for the assertion that schools such as Calvary may eventually lack enough approved courses for UC admission, Patti said, "The hypothetical that every core course would be disqualified is so far-fetched because Calvary already has a very large number of approved courses, including courses in every one of the a-g requirements." Once approved, he said, courses stay approved unless they undergo significant changes.

Moreover, he said, if a school does not have approval for all or any of the 15 a-g courses, there are other ways for students to satisfy the requirement. These include scoring in the top two-thirds on the relevant SAT II tests in missing courses or by achieving a total score of 3450 on the three-part SAT Reasoning Test and two SAT II subject tests. However, since the majority of applicants achieve eligibility through approved courses in high school, the Christian schools consider these alternatives unfairly burdensome for their students.

The case has the potential to be "very important," particularly if it goes to trial rather than being settled by summary judgment, said Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the Freedom Forum's First Amendment Center, a non-partisan foundation dedicated to free press and free speech.

"If it's all looked at closely at trial and the university prevails, then it seems to me to send a message across the country that a religious viewpoint at a religious school can get you in trouble. That's a chilling message. That can hurt your graduates, and that is also a disincentive to go to a religious school," he said.

"On the other hand, if the schools prevail, then I think it really sends a message that we take seriously the freedom of religious schools to teach from a religious perspective and that the public university and the government don't interfere with that. All we require is the same sort of neutral criteria for admission that apply to everybody else," Haynes said.

As Michael Broyde, a professor of law and academic director of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University, sees it, "In order for this to become an important case, the factual predicate has to be as follows: They [the Christian schools] are teaching the right course, but they're teaching it with an intellectual bias and because of that intellectual bias the University of California is denying them credit."

For Jay Sekulow, chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, a Christian legal group, the bias is on the part of UC and of a kind "that I thought we had gotten past a long time ago," he said.

Established in 1993 on a campus of low-slung Spanish-style buildings, Calvary has 1,200 students in its upper and lower schools; it graduated its first senior class in 1999. About 100 miles southeast of Los Angeles in Riverside County, the school is in a fast-growing part of the state's so-called Bible Belt. Starr makes clear the school's educational approach in his comments on its Web site: "Helping our students develop a Christian mind is central to our mission. Simply put, this means that our teachers train students to integrate or connect their Christian faith with their learning. They are taught to understand, analyze, and interpret every subject from a biblical perspective."

The case, Association of Christian Schools International et al vs. Roman Stearns et al, was filed in August 2005. Both sides have filed motions for summary judgment, but a hearing scheduled for Sept. 24 was postponed by the court.

Whatever the outcome, Starr indicated that the school's goals for its students will remain the same.

"We want them to think as a Christian. We want them to reason as a Christian. Whether we're using a Christian textbook or a secular text, we're still going to integrate the word of God into the curriculum," he said.
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Mon 8 Oct, 2007 06:13 pm
Dear Spendi,

IF you define morality as the duties of a person to his society rather than to an imaginary Godhead then the morality problem disappears.

Yes, one can have immoral Atheists as well as immoral Deists. Hitlers belief that the Aryan race was Gods chosen was definitely a counterpoint to the Jewish belief that they are the chosen people.

Hitlers behavior in regards to the Jewish and Negroid races is similar to the Jewish behavior regarding the Cannanites.

Atheists have no monopoly on immoral conduct. Stalins and Hirohito's behavior clearly shows this. Remember Hirohito was God in the same way Jesus Christ was.

Not to mention Pope Innocent and the Borgian Popes.

One should pity us poor Atheists Exclamation We cannot blame our misbehavior on "God's will. Moses and Hitler could and did Exclamation
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 07:01 am
aka wrote-

Quote:
IF you define morality as the duties of a person to his society rather than to an imaginary Godhead then the morality problem disappears.


You will need to draw some careful distinctions between "morality" and "duty" before anyone can respond coherently to that remark.

There are what might be called "lowest common denominator " moralities and "aspirational" moralities.

There are "agent-relative" moralities such as the acceptance or non acceptance of restaurant dining having a higher priority than using the money for famine relief.

Duty, it seems to me, is what the state, or the governance of lower order social systems, require under pain of some form of expressed disapproval.

Quote:
One should pity us poor Atheists


I do, but I disapprove of preaching it until such time as the institutional framework of society is capable of accepting the logic of it which it self evidently is not at this time. It is a trifle self indulgent to preach atheism in a society held together by Christian morality.

Some moralities have deemed it a duty to not only kill one's enemies but to eat them as well and others have found usefulness in the execution of "criminals" by public torture with the populace being invited to lend a hand.

Vengo wrote-

Quote:
You usually seem so quick to emphasize that ID isn't religion, that I'm surprised to see you equate anti-ID with anti-religion.


I had not noticed myself actually that I usually seem ( seem!!!) so quick to emphasize that ID isn't religion. Intelligent Design is a political movement whereas the idea of an intelligent designer is a philosophical notion which might become a religion if it organises, which it generally doesn't. It is like Democracy/democracy and Communism/communism.


I can't figure out what conclusion to draw from wande's last quote. It looks as if Lisa's editor tasked her with filling the allocation of white space she is deemed to have contracted to do by accepting her salary.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 08:48 am
Quote:
The origin of speciousness
(James Randerson, Guardian, October 9, 2007)

Growing numbers of school kids (we are told) believe in creationism. That poses a problem for teachers presenting evolution as part of the science curriculum. So they should cover religious explanations of origins alongside Darwinism.

That was the argument put forward last week in a new book entitled Teaching About Scientific Origins. One of its editors Prof Michael Reiss, of the Institute of Education in London told the Guardian:

"The days have long gone when science teachers could ignore creationism when teaching about origins. While it is unlikely that they will help students who have a conflict between science and their religious beliefs to resolve the conflict, good science teaching can help them to manage it - and to learn more science.

"By not dismissing their beliefs, we can ensure that these students learn what evolutionary theory really says, and give everyone the understanding to respect the views of others," he added.

Prof Reiss, who has a PhD in evolutionary biology and is also a Church of England priest, qualifies his position in the book:

"Teaching about aspects of religion in science classes could potentially help students better understand the strengths and limitations of the ways in which science is undertaken, the nature of truth claims in science, and the importance of social contexts for science.

"I do not belong to the camp that argues that creationism is necessarily nonscientific ... Furthermore I am not convinced that something being 'nonscientific' is sufficient to disqualify it from being considered in a science lesson. An understanding of (nonscientific) context often helps in learning the content of science."

This "anything goes" approach to school science will only serve to blur the boundary between evidence-based scientific knowledge and faith. At best it will provide an unwelcome distraction in an already tight curriculum. At worse it has the potential to confuse children as to what science is and what it is not.

To borrow an example from the evolutionary biologist and popular science author Prof Steve Jones, we don't ask science teachers to spend valuable teaching time explaining why the stork theory of human reproduction won't get you many marks in the exam. Nor do we ask them to go in detail through the case for the sun revolving around the earth.

School science lessons are for giving pupils a working knowledge of our current - but of course provisional - picture of how the world works, plus the evidence underpinning that. There is too much fascinating science out there to waste time rehearsing discredited old ideas.

The job of a science teacher should be to present the evidence in favour of Darwin's beautiful theory. The new guidelines from the government on teaching evolution state that alternatives to Darwinism such as creationism and intelligent design can come into discussions on the subject, but only to illustrate what does and does not constitute a scientific theory. In stating clearly that creationism and intelligent design "should not be taught as science" they are right on the money.

Prof Reiss is not saying that creationism is science, but his proposals seem to stem from the dangerous notion that religious views are beyond challenge. Education should be about allowing such views to be challenged.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 11:52 am
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
The origin of speciousness
(James Randerson, Guardian, October 9, 2007)

Prof Reiss wrote:
"I do not belong to the camp that argues that creationism is necessarily nonscientific..."

The the article wrote:
Prof Reiss is not saying that creationism is science...

The professor seems to be struggling desperately to try to find a way to allow creationism into discussions on science. Even going so far as saying that creationism is useful in a science discussion as an example of what science isn't. But then also implying that creationism might be science, but not really.

Honestly, this isn't that complicated; Teacher says, "Class, open your text books to page 101 and we're going to learn about evolution by means of natural selection." Jimmy says, "Teacher, my bible class says evolution is wrong." Teacher says, "that's fine Jimmy, you will only be tested on the information in the text book. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to understand it well enough to pass the class".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 12:38 pm
Quote:
Darwin's beautiful theory


Eh??? Yer what??

Weakest to the wall. Only the strongest males get their end away. Red in tooth and claw. The struggle for existence. Promiscuous females.

Beautiful my arse. It's horrible. It might be true within its limits but it's horrible. Ghastly. Unthinkable.

And it has no answer to an intelligent designer.

Professor Dawkins has made an appearence on this thread from time to time so I thought it worthwhile to quote the Professor of Cultural Theory at Manchester University, which is the home of the "where there's muck there's brass" theory of economics and Darwinian to its roots, on the wisdom of the nitwit.

Quote:
He dismissed Richard Dawkin's recent book The God Delusion as a "vulgar caricature of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince".


Theological graduates just find their toes curling up unconsciously with the embarrassment.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 12:44 pm
In the Sunday Times profile of the man Prof Eagleton is quoted as saying-

Quote:
There is the old Joycean question of how far you can walk away from something culturally imprinted in you so deeply.


And Joyce himself didn't walk all that far away either. And the anti-IDers on here have hardly yet taken the first stride.
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Tue 9 Oct, 2007 05:32 pm
Spendi,

Morality is a social essential reinforced by religion at its best, not the other way around.

Methinks you are putting the cart before the horse Exclamation

This is a common happenstance.

As a child--

This little pig went to market:
This little pig stayed home:
This little pig ate roast beef:
This little pig had none:
This little pig cried wee wee wee all the way home Exclamation

Now, is it miraculous that we have just enough fingers or toes to make the ditty come out right Question

Or is the ditty a social adaptation that a parent uses to play with and educate a child Question

We are social animals. If there was no code learned and accepted by the members of the society, the society would disappear.

Humans have more or less accidentally chosen intelligence as a survival strategy. Our social conventions have been intelligently chosen as a desirable alternative to the red fangs and claws. And if an Atheist desires to live in society he also must obey the social conventions. Just knowing that morality is an evolutionary requirement for humans in no way diminishes its necessity for those who would live as humans Exclamation
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 10 Oct, 2007 01:39 pm
aka-

You are starting in the wrong place. You are starting with the morality you take for granted. As if it's a given.

You should start with human nature before we left the Darwin stuff behind. The raw material.

You need to distinguish between vice/sin and obedience to edicts. We don't trust the latter because they are of human origin and thus based on self interest. How could regulations not be framed and interpreted according to self interest.

You are talking about morality as a ready to use procedure just as people talk about the contivances of life without much thought of how they got here.

Morality had to be created and religion, with all its faults and abuses, created it by associating virtue with a divine source as revealed by prophets and reinforced with ceremonials which have a psychological effect that a notice board will never compete with.

To point to the faults and abuses says nothing about the general principles. In fact the faults and abuses demonstrate just what a hill human nature has to climb.
0 Replies
 
 

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