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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 04:50 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant.


Obviously she would be being married to a bloke with little or no Christian and chivalrous humility. In today's world she would have been a Take That or Wham fan.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 05:29 pm
http://www.fstdt.com/funnyimages/uploads/217.gif
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 05:43 pm
Setanta wrote:
But it doesn't really matter what any of those gentlemen thought in their "heart of hearts" in the long watches of the night. What matters is what they proposed, or did not propose, to be the place of religion in public life.

Yes, that was my point.

In addition, I propose that what they wrote, and how it was interpreted has a life of its own, independent of their [unknown] personal beliefs and probably more value as a guide for current law.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 05:53 pm
They were Christians on the basic issues though. Missionary position. No joint bank accounts. Shirts properly ironed.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 06:21 pm
spendi's been drinking too much again.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 06:11 am
Ill stick with Adlers quote, since the product of the meetings of the Continental Congress and the written records of the first chief executives are self evident, an appeal to authority of natural law resulted in our secularist state .
We now fight these same battles that have (so far) been successful at keeping religion out of affairs of state and education and weve been able to undo the meddlesome intervening by the religious as they tried to insert their worldviews within the early public school systems in the last century.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 08:25 am
May I remind you fm that we are discussing-

Quote:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."


and, moreover, seeing as we are on a Science forum, attempting to do so empirically rather than with all that subjective baggage you trail along with.

Now- the true empiricist is essentially "feral".

If we only know through experience, what the senses tell us, we have to start from a position of total isolation from the world.

To prevent this isolation from becoming a trap from which it is impossible to escape we must already know some things without having to find them out empirically (through our senses, and you may include "mind" in the senses at your discretion). We need to be armed with certain ways of looking at the world.

xingu's signature is a case in point. He hasn't arrived at approving that statement using evidence from his senses. I think he's an empiricist. But he's been armed by forces he evidently knows little about.

Because the "certain ways of looking at the world" which the Founding Fathers had was Christian (their names and the language they use tell us that clearly enough), and we might presume they weren't "feral", I think, it is ridiculous to say-"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

It is inconceivable that these men, having spent their infancy, childhood, adolesence and youth within a Christian culture could be anything other than Christians or could found a system of government not based on Christian principles. Freud would whirl in his grave like an egg whisk on flat out at such a notion. His whole intellectual edifice would collapse.

Not flashing a tit at the Superbowl would be an example of an archaic Christian principle. (I use archaic in the European sense there).

The opposite to xingu's signature is actually the case. Bullshit some might call it but I'm a well mannered person so I will refrain from such low crudity.

Even the FF's underpants and those of their wives would be Christian. When they were fresh put on at least.

What xingu is trying to do is sound clever, daring, controversial and different and modern all at once when he actually is what everybody accuses me of being; a dumb-ass.

And anybody who approves of his signature is a dumb-ass by association.

You lot are "Awkward Squad" Christians to a man. And members of the Awkward Squad squaddies (a group traffic wardens are recruited from),ASS for short, have a reputation for dropping the rest of us ordinary boozers and drifters into the **** and not uncommonly the deep ****.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 08:34 am
"If" the US was founded on the basis of christianity, why isn't the words "Jesus, Lord, God, Christian, or Bible" in any of the documents to establish this country?

Democracy was an idea founded long before christianity in Greece and Rome.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 09:22 am
Gee c.i.

Democracy in the classical world! You have to be kidding.

Whether those words are mentioned in the founding documents is neither here nor there.

It's just a way of saying that you can't offer any argument other than one about labels. You may well not have been brought up in something resembling the culture of 17th and 18th century Europe so you may not understand what I meant.

There's only one sense in which "The government of the United States is not founded on the Christian Religion" and that is in respect to labels. Confusing form with substance. I was talking about substance and not outward forms.

Most Americans are Christians I gather. And it's the government of the people by the people for the people. Ipso facto it's a Christian government.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 10:08 am
Quote:
'Bong Hits for Jesus' case limits student rights
(By Bill Mears, CNN Washington Bureau, June 25, 2007)

The Supreme Court ruled against a former high school student Monday in the "Bong Hit 4 Jesus" banner case -- a split decision that limits students' free speech rights.

Joseph Frederick was 18 when he unveiled the 14-foot paper sign on a public sidewalk outside his Juneau, Alaska, high school in 2002.

Principal Deborah Morse confiscated it and suspended Frederick. He sued, taking his case all the way to the nation's highest court.

The justices ruled 6-3 that Frederick's free speech rights were not violated by his suspension over what the majority's written opinion called a "sophomoric" banner.

"It was reasonable for (the principal) to conclude that the banner promoted illegal drug use-- and that failing to act would send a powerful message to the students in her charge," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the court's majority.

Roberts added that while the court has limited student free speech rights in the past, young people do not give up all their First Amendment rights when they enter a school.

Roberts was supported by Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, Stephen Breyer, and Samuel Alito. Breyer noted separately he would give Morse qualified immunity from the lawsuit, but did not sign onto the majority's broader free speech limits on students.

In dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens said, "This case began with a silly nonsensical banner, (and) ends with the court inventing out of whole cloth a special First Amendment rule permitting the censorship of any student speech that mentions drugs, so long as someone could perceive that speech to contain a latent pro-drug message."

He was backed by Justices David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

At issue was the discretion schools should be allowed to limit messages that appear to advocate illegal drug use. "Bong," as noted in the appeal filed with the justices, "is a slang term for drug paraphernalia."

The incident occurred in January 2002 just outside school grounds when the Olympic torch relay was moving through the Alaska capital on its way to the Salt Lake City, Utah, Winter Games.

Though he was standing on a public sidewalk, the school argued Frederick was part of a school-sanctioned event, because students were let out of classes and accompanied by their teachers.

Morse ordered the senior to take down the sign, but he refused. That led to a 10-day suspension for violating a school policy on promoting illegal drug use.

Frederick filed suit, saying his First Amendment rights were infringed. A federal appeals court in San Francisco agreed, concluding the school could not show Frederick had disrupted the school's educational mission by showing a banner off campus.

Former independent counsel Kenneth Starr argued for the principal that a school "must be able to fashion its educational mission" without undue hindsight from the courts.

Morse, who attended arguments in March, told CNN at the time: "I was empowered to enforce the school board's written policies at that time aimed at keeping illegal substances out of the school environment."
As for Frederick, he is halfway across the globe, teaching English to students in China.

Now 24, he told reporters in March that he displayed the banner in a deliberate attempt to provoke a response from principal Morse, by whom he had been disciplined previously. But Frederick claimed his message of free speech is very important to him, even if the wording of the infamous banner itself was not.

"I find it absurdly funny," he said. "I was not promoting drugs. ... I assumed most people would take it as a joke."


The decision indicates that public schools can legally impose "viewpoint discrimination" in some cases. Although this case does not directly involve religious expression, some groups advocating more freedom of religious expression in public schools wrote briefs in support of the student.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 10:15 am
spendi: Most Americans are Christians I gather. And it's the government of the people by the people for the people. Ipso facto it's a Christian government.

What is a "christian?" Can you please give me "your" definition?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 10:30 am
Quote:
You lot are "Awkward Squad" Christians to a man. And members of the Awkward Squad squaddies (a group traffic wardens are recruited from),ASS for short, have a reputation for dropping the rest of us ordinary boozers and drifters into the **** and not uncommonly the deep ****.
You seem to get your shorts ina twist over rather small occurences.Why not just go somewhere where your insights are better appreciated, like the "trivia" threads. Not much thinking required to come up with words beginning with ascending letters.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 10:52 am
Stumped for words again lads?

You couldn't have written my 7.25 am post. It looks like you can't even understand it or more likely won't.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 10:55 am
spendius wrote:
Stumped for words again lads?

You couldn't have written my 7.25 am post. It looks like you can't even understand it or more likely won't.


You couldn't live with me on the Trivia threads either. The fact that you think Trivia is simple tells us all we need to know about you. You just underestimate everybody all the time.
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 11:20 am
spendius wrote:
What xingu is trying to do is sound clever, daring, controversial and different and modern all at once when he actually is what everybody accuses me of being; a dumb-ass.

And anybody who approves of his signature is a dumb-ass by association.


Like you said everybody accuses you of being a dumb ass. Everybody can't be wrong.

I might point out the the word Christ does not appear on the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. Our constitution is a secular document and is not based on the Bible.

Today we have some on the religious right (Creationist, I might add) trying to destroy the separation of church and state and have our laws based on the Bible.

David Barton (Wallbuilders)
"There should be absolutely no 'Separation of Church and State' in America."

Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics)
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship."

"This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians."

Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)
"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."

George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Henry Morris (Founder, Institute for Creation Research, died 2006)
"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data."

James Kennedy (Center for Reclaiming America)
"The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ."

Jay Grimstead (Coalition on Revival)
"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."

Jimmy Swaggart (Jimmy Swaggart Ministries)
"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it...Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."

John Whitehead (Rutherford Institute)
"The [Supreme] Court, by seeking to equate Christianity with other religions, merely assaults the one faith. The Court in essence is assailing the true God by democratizing the Christian religion."

Joseph Morecraft (Chalcedon Presbyterian Church)
"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."

Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin
"George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States, he was appointed by God."

Randall Terry (Operation Rescue)
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

"Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the ten Commandments. No apologies."

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."*

"There is going to be war, [and Christians may be called to] take up the sword to overthrow the tyrannical regime that oppresses them."

HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH YOUR NEIGHBOR!
Jerry Vines (Southern Baptist Convention)
"They would have us believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born son of God, Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a nine-year-old girl."

Robert Simonds (Citizens for Excellence in Education)
"As the church watches from the sidelines, the ungodly elect atheists and homosexuals to school boards and legislatures to enact policies and laws that destroy our Christian children and discriminate against Christian families."

"Atheistic secular humanists should be removed from office and Christians should be elected...Government and true Christianity are inseparable."

Robert T. Lee (Society for the Practical Establishment of the Ten Commandments)
"Raising your children under Americanism or any other principles other than true Christianity is child abuse."

"You do not have the right to be wrong, regardless of what any man-made or demonic charter says."

"Democracy originated in the mind of a rational being who has the deepest hatred for God."

"Do you realize that the only thing that gives democracy existence is sin? The absence of democracy is perfect obedience to god."

"The best way to insure the earth is never over populated is for sensible and righteous governments to clear all forms of atheism and heresy."

Star Parker (Coalition on Urban Renewal & Education)
"Anybody that believes in separation of church and state needs to leave right now."

William Rehnquist (Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court)
"The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 11:24 am
As I mentioned in my last post, the U.S. Supreme Court has announced its decision in Morse v. Frederick. Another significant viewpoint discrimination case is Association of Christian Schools International v. Roman Stearns which will soon be tried in the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California. The University of California is defending its policy that biology and physics courses relying on science textbooks containing a Christian viewpoint would not be approved to meet the lab science requirement for college admission.
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xingu
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 11:37 am
Spendius

Since you didn't like my quote I thought I'd change it.

I was trying to find someone intelligent to quote and guess what I found?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 01:18 pm
xingu-

I didn't say I didn't like your signature.

I simply said it was an incorrect and thus stupid statement 180 degrees contrary to the facts.

Having removed it I presume you have accepted my argument.

The new signature is also incorrect. I used "everybody" in a loose venacular way for literary efficiency. Obviously everybody is wrong from a strictly scientific point of view. I'm sorry that my figure of speech has confused you and caused your reflex action.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 01:24 pm
Heres a list that the NCSE has re published , listing all the support letters and briefs submitted on behalf of scientific organizations nationwide. These letters and briefs were placed into testimony on behalf of the plaintiifs in thge Kitzmiller v Dover case.(NCSE has never been an organization deeply concerned about timing, Im just getting the issue that featured Dover)BRIEFS AND SUPPORT STAEMENTS ON BEHALF OF SCIENCE
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2007 01:43 pm
Thanks for the link, farmerman.

Do you think that "viewpoint discrimination" will be used as a legal tactic to force schools to teach creation alongside evolution?

(I have seen that expression used more often recently and I believe that Phillip Johnson often accused public school science education of "viewpoint discrimination".)
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