97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 21 Jun, 2007 10:00 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
The unusual move shows that a U.S. trend for religiously based attacks on the theory of evolution is also worrying European politicians,


Well wande- Simon Jenkins had a long article in last weekend's Sunday Times to the effect that if we allow politicians to become unworried they will soon be behind the woodshed going through our pockets so I would suppose Mr Jenkins thinks that European politicians being worried is an excellent thing for democracy.

Personally, I don't think they are worrying about this topic so much as worrying about where they are going to have their conferences to discuss it and who will be attending them and whether the hospitality can be claimed for on the expenses form and what to wear and such like.

How old are you wande?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 21 Jun, 2007 10:03 am
Wandel is "young at heart," but with the wisdom seldom - if ever - seen in "your" neighborhood.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:26 pm
Quote:
Evolution, Religion and Free Will
The most eminent evolutionary scientists have surprising views on how religion relates to evolution
Gregory W. Graffin, William B. Provine
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/55593?&print=yes

During the 20th century, three polls questioned outstanding scientists about their attitudes toward science and religion. James H. Leuba, a sociologist at Bryn Mawr College, conducted the first in 1914. He polled 400 scientists starred as "greater" in the 1910 American Men of Science on the existence of a "personal God" and immortality, or life after death. Leuba defined a personal God as a "God to whom one may pray in the expectation of receiving an answer." He found that 32 percent of these scientists believed in a personal God, and 37 percent believed in immortality. Leuba repeated basically the same questionnaire in 1933. Belief in a personal God among greater scientists had dropped to 13 percent and belief in immortality to 15 percent. In both polls, beliefs in God and immortality were less common among biologists than among physical scientists. Belief in immortality had dropped to 2 percent among greater psychologists in the 1933 poll. Leuba predicted in 1916 that belief in a personal God and in immortality would continue to drop in greater scientists, a forecast clearly borne out by his second poll in 1933, and he further predicted that the figures would fall even more in the future.

Edward J. Larson, professor of law and the history of science at the University of Georgia, and science journalist Larry Witham, both theists, polled National Academy of Sciences members in 1998 and provided further confirmation of Leuba's conjecture. Using Leuba's definitions of God and immortality for direct comparison, they found lower percentages of believers. Only 10 percent of NAS scientists believed in God or immortality, with those figures dropping to 5 percent among biologists.

2003 Cornell Evolution Project
Our study was the first poll to focus solely on eminent evolutionists and their views of religion. As a dissertation project, one of us (Graffin) prepared and sent a detailed questionnaire on evolution and religion to 271 professional evolutionary scientists elected to membership in 28 honorific national academies around the world, and 149 (55 percent) answered the questionnaire. All of them listed evolution (specifically organismic), phylogenetics, population biology/genetics, paleontology/paleoecology/paleobiology, systematics, organismal adaptation or fitness as at least one of their research interests. Graffin also interviewed 12 prestigious evolutionists from the sample group on the relation between modern evolutionary biology and religion.

A primary complaint of scientists who answered the earlier polls was that the concept of God was limited to a "personal God." Leuba considered an impersonal God as equivalent to pure naturalism and classified advocates of deism as nonbelievers. We designed the current study to distinguish theism from deism?-that is to day a "personal God" (theism) versus an "impersonal God" who created the universe, all forces and matter, but does not intervene in daily events (deism). An evolutionist can be considered religious, in our poll, if he calls himself a deist.

Comprised of 17 questions and space for optional comments, this questionnaire addressed many more issues than the earlier polls. Religious evolutionists were asked to describe their religion, and unbelievers were asked to choose their closest description among atheist, agnostic, naturalist or "other" (with space to describe). Other questions asked if the evolutionary scientist were a monist or dualist?-that is, believed in a singular controlling force in natural science or also allowed for the supernatural?-whether a conflict between evolution and religion is inevitable, whether humans have free will, whether purpose or progress plays a role in evolution, and whether naturalism is a sufficient way to understand evolution, its products and human origins.

Perhaps the most revealing question in the poll asked the respondent to choose the letter that most closely represented where her views belonged on a ternary diagram. The great majority of the evolutionists polled (78 percent) chose A, billing themselves as pure naturalists. Only two out of 149 described themselves as full theists (F), two as more theist than naturalist (D) and three as theistic naturalists (B). Taken together, the advocacy of any degree of theism is the lowest percentage measured in any poll of biologists' beliefs so far (4.7 percent).

No evolutionary scientists in this study chose pure deism (I), but the deistic side of the diagram is heavy compared to the theistic side. Eleven respondents chose C, and 10 chose other regions on the right side of the diagram (E, H or J). Most evolutionary scientists who billed themselves as believers in God were deists (21) rather than theists (7).

The responses to other questions in the poll parallel those in the ternary diagram and are summarized in graphs below. Furthermore, most (79 percent) of the respondents billed themselves as metaphysical naturalists. They were strongly materialists and monists: 73 percent said organisms have only material properties, whereas 23 percent said organisms have both material and spiritual properties. These answers are hardly surprising given previous polls. But the answers to two questions were surprising to us.

How Evolution and Religion Relate
Evolutionists were presented with four choices on the relation between evolution and religion: A, they are non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) whose tenets are not in conflict; B, religion is a social phenomenon that has developed with the biological evolution of Homo sapiens?-therefore religion should be considered as a part of our biological heritage, and its tenets should be seen as a labile social adaptation, subject to change and reinterpretation; C, they are mutually exclusive magisteria whose tenets indicate mutually exclusive conclusions; or D, they are totally harmonious?-evolution is one of many ways to elucidate the evidences of God's designs.

Only 8 percent of the respondents chose answer A, the NOMA principle advocated by Stephen Jay Gould, rejecting the harmonious view of evolution and religion as separate magisteria. Even fewer (3 percent) believe that evolution and religion are "totally harmonious," answer D. A weak response to both of these options is unsurprising since the participants are so strongly nonreligious, shown by their answers to other questions in the poll. But we did expect a strong showing for choice C, which suggests that evolution and religion are mutually exclusive and separated by a gulf that cannot be bridged. This was the answer chosen by Richard Dawkins, who has a strong reputation for declaring that science has much better answers for human society than does religion.

Instead, the wide majority, 72 percent, of the respondents chose option B. These eminent evolutionists view religion as a sociobiological feature of human culture, a part of human evolution, not as a contradiction to evolution. Viewing religion as an evolved sociobiological feature removes all competition between evolution and religion for most respondents.

Evolutionary scientists are strongly motivated to ameliorate conflict between evolution and religion. Sociobiology offers them an apparent conciliatory path to the compatibility of religion and evolution, avoiding all language of inescapable conflict. Sociobiological evolution is the means to understanding religion, whereas religion as a "way of knowing" has nothing to teach us about evolution. This view allows a place for religion and sounds superficially comforting to compatibilists.

Charles Darwin was also loath to talk about evolution and religion in On the Origin of Species. He sought ways to lessen the conflict between his idea of natural selection and Christianity in the period just after 1859. Asa Gray, the Harvard botanist who was so taken by the Origin, wrote two reviews arguing for the compatibility of the intelligent design of God and Darwin's idea of natural selection. God, according to Gray, guided the available variation and thus controlled the evolutionary process. Darwin sought Gray's permission to reprint parts of both reviews as a pamphlet that Darwin, at his own expense, distributed widely to those who raised religious objections to his views in the Origin. At this time, Darwin privately believed that Christianity was incompatible with his idea of natural selection but used Asa Gray's reviews to help mute public and academic uproar from religious objections to his book.

Nine years later, On the Origin of Species had become a huge international success, and Darwin published The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication. No longer needing a compatibilist slant on natural selection and religion, he clearly distanced himself from Gray's views. In the last paragraph of Volume II, Darwin rejects the possibility that God was guiding evolution and writes about Asa Gray:

… no shadow of reason can be assigned for the belief that variations, alike in nature and the result of the same general laws, which have been the groundwork through natural selection of the formation of the most perfectly adapted animals in the world, man included, were intentionally and specially guided. However much we may wish it, we can hardly follow Professor Asa Gray in his belief that "variation has been led along certain beneficial lines," like a stream "along definite and useful lines of irrigation."

If Gray were right, then natural selection was superfluous; an omniscient Creator determines the goals of evolution. "Thus," Darwin concludes in the last sentence of the book, "we are brought face to face with a difficulty as insoluble as is that of free will and predestination." Darwin, however, had solved the problem of free will more than 30 years earlier; he believed it was nonexistent. He also believed that he had solved the problem of intelligent design in adaptations?-that also was nonexistent for him, a view shared by the vast majority of the world's most eminent evolutionists alive today, according to our study.

If Asa Gray represented the commonly held view of scientists who studied evolution in the 1860s, evolution could be subsumed under religion as a manifestation of God's design. Today, as our results show, the commonly held view among evolutionists is that religion is subsumed under sociobiological evolution. There has been a complete inversion of the naturalist worldview in the last 150 years.

Eminent evolutionists are now caught in a bind that reminds us of Darwin in 1859. They worry that the public association of evolution with atheism or at least nonreligion will hurt evolutionary biology, perhaps impeding its funding or acceptance. Asa Gray's gloss and that of the evolutionists in this poll, however, differ fundamentally. Gray offered a theological synthesis with natural selection that Darwin carefully used for a few years before extracting himself from it. Seeing religion as a sociobiological feature of human evolution, while a plausible hypothesis, denies all worth to religious truths. A recent informal poll of our religious acquaintances suggests that they are not pleased by the thought that their religions originated in sociobiology.

Human Free Will
Charles Darwin recognized the importance of free will to evolutionary biology. He first wrote about human free will in his M & N notebooks as he became a materialist in 1838, soon after the voyage of the Beagle:

The general delusion about free will is obvious because man has power of action, & he can seldom analyses his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, & therefore now great effort of reason to discover them.…)
Darwin saw punishing criminals for any reason other than deterring others as morally wrong: Criminals should be pitied and rehabilitated rather than hated. Revenge he abhorred. Further, "this view should teach one humility, one deserves no credit for anything (yet one takes it for beauty and good temper)." And finally, he said, a "believer in these views will pay great attention to Education."

Our questionnaire offered evolutionary scientists only two choices on the question about human free will: A, all organisms are locally determined by heredity and environment, but humans still possess free will; B, all organisms are locally determined by heredity and environment, and humans have no free will. To our surprise, 79 percent of the respondents chose option A for this question, indicating their belief that people have free will despite being determined by heredity and environment. Only 14 percent chose no free will, and 7 percent did not answer the question.

Some philosophers have come to the view that human beings are entirely determined but still possess free will?-see, for example, the views of Daniel Dennett or Ted Honderich?-but we doubt the evolutionists polled have read carefully this genre of modern philosophy. This view was not mentioned in the interviews nor in the many comments generated by the free-will question. Instead, we think there is a conflation of free will with choice.

We anticipated a much higher percentage for option B and a low percentage for A, but got just the opposite result. One of us (Provine) has been thinking about human free will for almost 40 years, has read most of the philosophical literature on the subject and polls his undergraduate evolution class (200-plus students) each year on belief in free will. Year after year, 90 percent or more favor the idea of human free will for a very specific reason: They think that if people make choices, they have free will. The professional debate about free will has moved far from this position, because what counts is whether the choice is free or determined, not whether human beings make choices. People and animals both certainly choose constantly. Comments from the evolutionists suggest that they were equating human choice and human free will. In other words, although eminent, our respondents had not thought about free will much beyond the students in introductory evolution classes. Evolutionary biology is increasingly applied to psychology. Belief in free will adds nothing to the science of human behavior.

Conclusion
Only 10 percent of the eminent evolutionary scientists who answered the poll saw an inevitable conflict between religion and evolution. The great majority see no conflict between religion and evolution, not because they occupy different, noncompeting magisteria, but because they see religion as a natural product of human evolution. Sociologists and cultural anthropologists, in contrast, tend toward the hypothesis that cultural change alone produced religions, minus evolutionary change in humans. The eminent evolutionists who participated in this poll reject the basic tenets of religion, such as gods, life after death, incorporeal spirits or the supernatural. Yet they still hold a compatible view of religion and evolution.


http://www.americanscientist.org/content/AMSCI/AMSCI/Image/FullImage_20076191644_648.jpg
One hundred and forty-nine eminent evolutionary scientists responded to a recent poll about their views on religion. In a change from the methodology used in previous studies of such beliefs, the authors allowed their subjects to place themselves at one of several points on a ternary scale (above). The majority (78 percent) described themselves as naturalists (A). Only two claimed to be full theists (F), but two also described themselves as more theistic than naturalistic (D). Those who considered their beliefs to be midway between naturalism and deism chose J, and one evolutionist chose M, indicating no preference for any description. Three percent did not answer.
Barbara Aulicino


http://www.americanscientist.org/content/AMSCI/AMSCI/Image/FullImage_20076193543_307.gif
Of those evolutionists who claimed a belief in God, the majority placed themselves somewhere on the right side of the ternary diagram on the facing page (a). Nonetheless, when asked simply whether they believed in God, nearly 80 percent said no (b). When asked if they believed in immortality, an even larger majority (almost 90 percent) said that they did not. These results are unsurprising, matching well with polls done in 1914, 1933 and 1998.
Stephanie Freese

http://www.americanscientist.org/content/AMSCI/AMSCI/Image/FullImage_2007619478_307.gif
When asked how religion and evolutionary science relate, 72 percent of the respondents thought that religion is an adaptation?-simply a sociobiological result of evolution. Surprisingly, more view them as mutually exclusive tenets than subscribe to Stephen Jay Gould's concept of non-overlapping magisteria.
Stephanie Freese

http://www.americanscientist.org/content/AMSCI/AMSCI/Image/FullImage_200761133111_307.gif
When asked whether they believe in free will, most scientists surveyed said they did, apparently viewing the philosophical concept of free will to be equivalent to choice.
Stephanie Freese
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 09:43 am
xingu writes-

Quote:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

THOSE WORDS, PENNED IN ARTICLE 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, are as succinct a statement as we have from the Founding Fathers on the role of religion.


Perhaps the Founding Fathers liked to pull each other's leg a bit. It is a kinder explanation than that they were completely stupid which they would have needed to be to actually mean that statement.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 10:28 am
when did you accomplish anything besides warming a barstool spendi? Claiming that something is stupid from where you sit is particularly funny since weve all been entertained by your own witless and vapid musings.

anyway, you miss the entire point of reference implicit in xingus quote you dummy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 11:38 am
In fact, from the very beginning of our nation in 1783 until the end of the second Barbary War in 1816, United States merchant vessels were preyed upon by Algerine and Tunisian and Lybian pirates, known in the aggregate as the Barbary pirates. This was also true of the French and the English. Although the Royal Navy sometimes took action against them, basically their attention was focused on the French, especially after the Revolution. The English, the French and the Americans all used a mix of diplomacy, threats of military action, military action and paying bribes--"tribute." In the treaty referred to, the Americans agreed to pay a set fee to the Algerine pirates, and made the specific statement that the United States is not a christian nation because if the local boys declared it a holy war, the pirates had an excuse to murder American seamen out of hand, or to sell them into slavery. Far from being a stupid thing to have written, it was very canny, and gave them a reason under international law to hold the Bey of Algiers responsible if any American seamen were murdered or sold into slavery.

Because of the War of 1812, the Americans were prevented from paying the tribute which they had agreed to by treaty, and the Algerines used that as an excuse to seize American shipping again. The English and French had taken no military action against the Barbary pirates for the duration of the Wars of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars. Before the War of 1812, the Americans had launched military operations by sea and by land against the Barbary pirates, and had, in fact, knocked the Bey of Tripoli out of the war. With the War of 1812, the Americans could neither pay tribute nor take military action, because they were fighting the Royal Navy. After 1815, however, the English began to patrol again, and the Americans launched heavy attacks against the Algerines and the Tunisians, resulting in the final defeat of the Barbary pirates as organized, state-sponsored terrorists by 1816. Thereafter, piracy from the North African coast was on a free-lance basis, and Royal Navy and United States Navy patrols were able effectively to deal with it.

The only completely stupid individual i see here is someone so dense as to comment on complex historical events without knowing the context or any of the details.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 02:20 pm
The FFs couldn't help but be Christians.

It was in their mother's milk and the air they breathed.

And the same applied to the millions of immigrants who followed them from Europe.

How many buildings dedicated to Christian forms of worship are there in the US?

When it is said that they were "very canny" that means they were pulling somebody's leg.

But what does all that bull about pirates have to do with the point?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 02:25 pm
spendi, In the little town of Ohrid, Macedonia, they once had 365 churches. You can put that in your memory bank for future reference.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 06:02 pm
The competition for the collection plate fiasco must have resulted in some fancy niche marketing in such an environment.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2007 06:50 pm
You betcha. Can you imagine 365 priests/ministers in one small town?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 03:29 am
If nobody is prepared to estimate how many buildings of Christian worship there are in the US, offering a red herring instead, could anybody say how many religious cults deriving from Christianity there are in the US?

We are discussing the statement-

Quote:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."


rather than events in a small town in the Balkans.

A scientific mind would not go diverting the issue into irrelevant areas. That really is dishonest.

I don't mind if nobody answers the two questions about Christian buildings and cults. I know that the answers to both are "a lot" and that xingu's statement in his signature is false.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 06:15 am
Ina more pensive moment , Jefferson revealed to James Smith(quoted from Steiner's"The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents"...)

"The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God, like any other Cerberus, with one body and three heads, HAd its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs"


or as Mortimer Adler stated:

"One of the embarrasing problems for the early 19th century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six presidents of the US was an Orthodox Christian"

Set had attempted to inform you of the context and meaning of the Jefferson quote that xingu uses as his sig line. Spendi, You miss the point of historical reference again, youre the village idiot. Wear it proudly.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 11:46 am
From Google.

Quote:
President George Washington was an Episcopalian. He was a member of the Episcopal Church, the American province of the Anglican Communion, which is a branch of Christianity, and which is usually classified as Protestant.


Quote:
President John Adams was a devout Unitarian, which was a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian denomination during the Colonial era.


Quote:
President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican).


The list goes on. Was Adler spinning on the word "orthodox".

A quickie-

Quote:
4 James Madison Episcopalian (deist?)
5 James Monroe Episcopalian (deist?)
6 John Quincy Adams Unitarian
7 Andrew Jackson Presbyterian
8 Martin Van Buren Dutch Reformed
9 William Henry Harrison Episcopalian
10 John Tyler Episcopalian (deist)
11 James Knox Polk Presbyterian; Methodist
12 Zachary Taylor Episcopalian
13 Millard Fillmore Unitarian
14 Franklin Pierce Episcopalian
15 James Buchanan Presbyterian
16 Abraham Lincoln raised Baptist; later no specific denomination (deist)
17 Andrew Johnson Christian (no specific denomination)
18 Ulysses S Grant Presbyterian; Methodist
19 Rutherford B. Hayes Presbyterian; Methodist (?)
20 James A. Garfield Disciples of Christ
21 Chester A. Arthur Episcopalian
22 Grover Cleveland Presbyterian
23 Benjamin Harrison Presbyterian
24 Grover Cleveland Presbyterian
25 William McKinley Methodist
26 Theodore Roosevelt Dutch Reformed; Episcopalian
27 William Howard Taft Unitarian
28 Woodrow Wilson Presbyterian
29 Warren G. Harding Baptist
30 Calvin Coolidge Congregationalist
31 Herbert Hoover Quaker
32 Franklin Delano Roosevelt Episcopalian
33 Harry S. Truman Southern Baptist
34 Dwight D. Eisenhower River Brethren; Jehovah's Witnesses; Presbyterian
35 John F. Kennedy Catholic
36 Lyndon B. Johnson Disciples of Christ
37 Richard M. Nixon Quaker
38 Gerald Ford Episcopalian
39 Jimmy Carter Baptist (former Southern Baptist)
40 Ronald Reagan Disciples of Christ; Presbyterian
41 George H. W. Bush Episcopalian
42 William Jefferson Clinton Baptist
43 George W. Bush Methodist (former Episcopalian)
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 12:30 pm
If we finally knew the truth. If we had an accurate description of what the US Founding Fathers thought in their bedrooms at night, would it change anything about our world? Should it?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 12:45 pm
In many cases, we do know what these men thought publicly. Jefferson, of course, first coined the phrase "wall of separation" in his letter to the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists. Jefferson is also well known for condemning organized religion, and writing his own version of the new testament to remove what he considered to be the Pauline dross which had been larded over the report of the teachings of the putative Jesus.

But it doesn't really matter what any of those gentlemen thought in their "heart of hearts" in the long watches of the night. What matters is what they proposed, or did not propose, to be the place of religion in public life. For example, in the list above, Andrew Jackson is listed as a Presbyterian. For ought that i know, he may well have been, life-long, a devout Presbyterian. However, his attitude to religion in public life can be seen very clearly from a particular incident which occurred in 1832, at a time when he was running for re-election to the office of President. A cholera epidemic was raging in cities on the Atlantic coast. Medicine in that day had no weapons to battle that disease, so some reputedly pious Senators called for a resolution to authorize a day of fasting, humiliation and prayer.

Andrew Jackson demurred, writing: "I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the president; and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion now enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government."

As was the case when Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists, the principle at issue was not simply that government had no place in religion, and religion had no place in government--but a greater underlying principle was that the complete separation of religion and government serves to protect the religious liberties of all citizens. This is a concept which i am sure will shoot right over the head of any mealy-mouthed contrarian who lives in a nation with an established church, to the excellence of which institution he pays pious, hypocritical lip service, while spending his sabbath either recovering from his drinking binge of the night before, or in the local soaking up yet more cheap booze.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 12:52 pm
Set, It's too bad Bush is ignorant of this history, and have pushed his religious belief on all the citizens of this country.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 02:13 pm
There are two court cases involving "viewpoint discrmination" in U.S. schools. One is Morse v. Frederick where the nine supreme court justices may announce an opinion soon. The other is Association of Christian Schools v. Roman Stearns, involving a complaint against University of California admissions policy that includes not giving high school credit in biology for courses that use creationist textbooks.

For many years, Phillip Johnson and other evolution opponents have argued that schools refusing to teach creationism alongside evolution are practicing "viewpoint discrimination".
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 02:21 pm
It's amazing what one might learn simply by suggesting that xingu's signature is a bit iffy.

When Diogenes was caught wanking in public he remarked to his detractors, who mattered to him not in the slightest- "Tis a pity hunger can't be assuaged as easily." In Greek I mean- that's a rough translation.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 03:32 pm
Very Happy Or as Lincoln said during the Civil WAr'God may truly be on our side, but to tell the truth, Id rather have Kentucky" Very Happy

As far as Washington (we can start with him) He attended church with his wife in the last few years of his life. His beliefs had been mostly romanticized as per paintings by tyhe PEales or Gilbert Stuart. AS Bishop White said
Quote:
"Philadelphia, Aug. 15, 1835.

"Dear Sir: In regard to the subject of your inquiry, truth requires me to say that Gen. Washington never received the communion in the churches of which I am the parochial minister. Mrs. Washington was an habitual communicant.

... I have been written to by many on that point, and have been obliged to answer them as I now do you. I am respectfully.

"Your humble servant,

"WILLIAM WHITE."
(Memoir of Bishop White, pp. 196, 197).


0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2007 03:44 pm
If you're in a sinking boat, you can pray, but swimming is more productive.
0 Replies
 
 

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