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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 03:23 am
Philistine City. The mob's on the move. Jeer-jeer,booboo mnuurrrr- pulls out tongue.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 06:13 am
Not directly on the subject, but Ive beeen reading a bit about "fossil genes" which are those genomes whose complement of nucleotides, have been shown to persist between totally unrelated species. For example, the genomes of yeasts contain the same segments of nucleotides strands (ACTAAGG etc) and these nucleic acids are active forming all 64 of the amino acides that code for the specific proteins used in carrying out organism functions, also these same nucleotides persist in higher life forms. The same strands occur in Mus musculus and humans where these gene components are now "turned off", but still exist in the genome as "junk" or "fossil genes". In fact about 61 % of all nucleotide sequences contained in the meager genomes of yeasts and all living things contain this "immortal core" of genes that occur in the same sequences and makeup across all life. The differences that appear greater in % complement of genes among simpler and more advanced lifeforms, become less and less as life progresses. So the Creationist argument that no new genes are formed is incorrect, at least from evidentiary POV..
According to Sean Carroll, the functions of these "immortal core genes" are central to the universal processes in the cell. Using this as a "bar code " of life they act a guide-on the gene complement of all living things. Therefore the genomes of all living things contain their own "fossil record" that connects through all through the processes of evolution.

As genomes of more and more organisms get stacked up in the bin , its beginning to become more obvious that evolution is not only not a random chance effort, its a predictable genetic "response" mechanism to ever changing environments.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 06:18 am
farmerman wrote:
Not directly on the subject, but Ive beeen reading a bit about "fossil genes" which are those genomes whose complement of nucleotides, have been shown to persist between totally unrelated species. For example, the genomes of yeasts contain the same segments of nucleotides strands (ACTAAGG etc) and these nucleic acids are active forming all 64 of the amino acides that code for the specific proteins used in carrying out organism functions, also these same nucleotides persist in higher life forms. The same strands occur in Mus musculus and humans where these gene components are now "turned off", but still exist in the genome as "junk" or "fossil genes". In fact about 61 % of all nucleotide sequences contained in the meager genomes of yeasts and all living things contain this "immortal core" of genes that occur in the same sequences and makeup across all life. The differences that appear greater in % complement of genes among simpler and more advanced lifeforms, become less and less as life progresses. So the Creationist argument that no new genes are formed is incorrect, at least from evidentiary POV..
According to Sean Carroll, the functions of these "immortal core genes" are central to the universal processes in the cell. Using this as a "bar code " of life they act a guide-on the gene complement of all living things. Therefore the genomes of all living things contain their own "fossil record" that connects through all through the processes of evolution.

As genomes of more and more organisms get stacked up in the bin , its beginning to become more obvious that evolution is not only not a random chance effort, its a predictable genetic "response" mechanism to ever changing environments.


All this is farmerman is proof that God works in mysterious ways.....sure they are redundent, poorly designed, inefficient, and all point to micro/macro evolution ways, but we can not hope to understand God.

Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 06:29 am
Hes a micromanager. While being omnipotent and fully cognizant of all the environmental changes that are due, why then does he show evidence of life systems screwing around with b ody types and genomes that may or may not be a success? Look at our own spcies, we arent really sure how many "test models " were shipped out before we would up with H.s.s.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 07:15 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
I summarize spendis last few days(without having read them).


We'll have to hope that the other few billion who haven't read my post don't decide to come on here and let us know or make comments concerning it.

And if that isn't enough what about this-

Quote:
"Bob Dylan said it best when he said" blah blah blah blah blah ohhh baby blah blah blah blah blah"


for making a fool of yourself.

Still- it's being Abled 2 Know on a grand scale to be informed that fm is going away for the weekend. Whatever would we do without such insights?

"Uncanny" is an understatement wande.

And the spokesperson for the viewers opines that-

Quote:
The above article is not worthreading any further past past the word"the"


So the viewer is having his/her mind made up for them with another dreary assertion into which not the slightest effort has been put.

Don't you just love these anti-IDers eh?

Imagine them with power. That would be something else.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 07:27 am
fm wrote after saying that it is not directly on the subject-

Quote:
Therefore the genomes of all living things contain their own "fossil record" that connects through all through the processes of evolution.


Would that explain why only those organisms which have Christian churches have females who wear suspender belts and black stockings with high heels?

I'll tell the ordinary working man in the pub tonight about the yeast. I'm sure he will be totally fascinated.

Make it a long weekend fm. As long as possible. Try reading something interesting for a change. That post (which I read) only impresses those who don't know anything about the subject. I should imagine a specialist would water the inside of his trouser leg on perusing it.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 10:44 am
bad day spendi? you are quite predictable though.

The Bayeux tapestry seemed not to have hit an accord, so Ill keep beating on it in the manner that you try to raise veblen and Flaubert.

Are you familiar with the Ladies of Leeds sewing club who, in the late 19th century, did a perfect copy of the tapestry?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 11:40 am
wande wrote-

Quote:
Your crucial questions are answered in that law journal article, spendi. Click on my link and read it!


There is no sign of hide nor hare of them wande I'm afraid.

The questions are-

1- Are you in favour of muzzling science? The one Lola asked me and I answered.

2-What type of society will result if anti-ID wins the day and all religious thought disappears from society which is what one would expect to happen judging from the language of anti-Iders in relation to religious thought? (The self-same question contained in the Isaiah quote I provided the other day just to show that it wasn't one of my novel ideas- I daren't mention any of those.)

3- Do you recognise a "feeling" component (emotion) in human nature alongside a "reason" component and if so how do you propose nourishing it?

Your link went nowhere near any of those questions and it surprises me that you assert that it answers them or even one of them. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

The link seemed to me to be nothing but a bunch of arid pedantic legalisms designed to hide the fact that a few $million dollars was cleaned out of Dover and a good time had by all. ( Did prostitution density increase during the proceedings?)

You must know wande that the average IQ of all Americans is 100 and that the bulk of the population is between 90 and 100 with as many below 100 as above. Your link is by way of being an esoteric document of use only to those who specialise in using certain language structures to exert power over the rest of us. As the Latinists did in days of yore.

**********

Emotion is not much use without light and light is not much use without emotion.

**********

Talking of the sort of ID you have in mind, the Bishop Wiberforce version, Matthew Arnold wrote-

Quote:
he freely permitted himself the use of clap-trap. . . he was signally addicted to clap-trap. . . Those who use clap-trap as the late Bishop of Winchester used it. . . only prove their valuelessness


And that was when Bishops were a power in the land.

Would it be possible for you to get out of your heads that your protagonist on here agrees with that statement and if you wish to address your arguments to those who peddle the clap-trap which the Bishop did (arks and floods etc) you might go on those threads where they post it.



And when Thomas Huxley, of all people, was elected to one of the London School Boards in 1870 he defied his secular colleagues by asking them "to make the Bible a part of everyday's study in schools".

Park Honan wrote-

Quote:
Dogmatists like (Lord) Salisbury only ensured the Bible would be dropped in disgust sooner or later by all the schools-- and hence the public would lose just that sense of religion and poetic insight which might correct its deadly (sic) literal-mindedness.

Anti-ID is profoundly elitist and the half-baked anti-IDers on here are seeking to associate themselves with it so that they can pretend and feel part of that elite with little or no effort, and their lack of effort is emblazoned in everything they write and in their expression style, and they are decidedly not a part of that elite. They are a claque.

Honan writes-

Quote:
What Arnold feared was this: profound changes in the social order as they continue in future --and involve revolutions more radical than the founding of "socialistic and red republics" and more sweeping than anything dreamed yet by biologists and physicists--will separate people from the past collective wisdom of the race. Life is sterile and barren, no matter how fair our new society may look.


And the only ethical question raised in those days was about animal experimentation.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 01:31 pm
I do not think that you read all forty pages, spendi. I will be giving you an exam. Please take time to read the essay again.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 02:11 pm
Not likely- once was quite sufficient. You don't seriously think do you that any of those guys are of the same order as the guys I quote?

I'd bet some of your heroes play golf and sleep on embroidered pillowcases in face-packs. They are still playing with the coloured beads on their pram as far as I'm concerned.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 02:28 pm
Hey- I bought in a junk auction this afternoon the clear out of a presumably recently deceased radio engineer, valves (tubes in Yank-speech I gather) and manuals. Six boxes full of the stuff for £15 ($30). I checked one model, a Mullard, on E-bay and they wanted £85 for one and I have ten of those here still in their original packaging. There must be four hundred valves.

So I'm not as daft as you might think.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 02:32 pm
Quote:
So I'm not as daft as you might think.

When I think of you spendi, I think in superlatives.


Hell, I know a guy in Canaan Maine that sells BUTTONS on e-Bay. HE makes a very good living. However , hes quite a bedbug.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 03:25 pm
I'm a bedbug myself.

I think these old things have a lot less of the "untouched by human hand" about them. The more the human hand is withdrawn from a production process the more inhuman the article becomes and that might be repulsive to some people. A lot of the old amplifiers had these tubes in them and some musicians prefer the sound they make. Maybe undoing hand made buttons is better than the mass produced ones which, of course, would be the only ones available once the anti-ID police had swooped on the heretical ones.

So if the guy's a friend you would be doing him a favour switching to id.

Did you see the way that lady who has had her little daughter abducted in Portugal looked at The Pope. A picture tells a thousand stories.
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aidan
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 03:40 pm
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
So I'm not as daft as you might think.

When I think of you spendi, I think in superlatives.


Hell, I know a guy in Canaan Maine that sells BUTTONS on e-Bay. HE makes a very good living. However , hes quite a bedbug.


Sorry to interrupt- but I used to live in Canaan, Maine!! And it's a tiny, little town- Lake George, post office, the Purple Cow (a restaurant) and a church that's now a stained glass window recovery and repair shop- that's about it- so maybe I know this guy. Has he lived there long?
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maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 03:40 pm
spendius wrote:
which, of course, would be the only ones available once the anti-ID police had swooped on the heretical ones.


WHAT THE HELL are you talking about?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:44 pm
We used to go through Cnaan after leaving 2 Rivers Campground with our RV. Its on Rt 2 and youre right, theres very little there and the stained glass guy is still there. The button guy (Gary) had his shop right acroos Rt 2 freom the Stained Glass winow place. He said that he made over 500 bucks a day selling buttons on e-Bay. Of course that when he worked. I think he did one day a week of actual e-Baying and then lived in his antique shop.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:46 pm
Maporche's comment to Farmerman--
"All this...is proof that God works in mysterious ways.....sure they are redundent, poorly designed, inefficient, and all point to micro/macro evolution ways, but we can not hope to understand God"--

illustrates my statement earlier that, according to believers God is always right even when he's wrong.

Here Maporche is repeating the theistic axiom that God is right but we cannot always understand in what way.

In eastern religions the Ultimate is neither right nor wrong; it's simply what it is, whether we like it or not.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:48 pm
maporsche
Quote:
WHAT THE HELL are you talking about?

This seems to be a chorus that we all sing to spendi sooner or later. Spendi believes in conversations with one person , himself. If other people dont "get it" he claims superiority and feels good about himslf, for he is in need of a host of attaboys.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 04:51 pm
farmerman wrote:
maporsche
Quote:
WHAT THE HELL are you talking about?

This seems to be a chorus that we all sing to spendi sooner or later. Spendi believes in conversations with one person , himself. If other people dont "get it" he claims superiority and feels good about himslf, for he is in need of a host of attaboys.


gotcha, this is my first experience with spendi, I'll know better next time
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 May, 2007 05:20 pm
Never mind me. You are just using me as an excuse.

What about the idea that we are repulsed on an unconscious level by things "untouched by human hand" even though they are cheaper and seemingly efficient. Like free range eggs for example. Or produce grown on allotments by dedicated nutcases.

There's a scene in Hearts of Fire which shows the entrance to the farm where Billy Parker has retreated to, listening to When the Night Comes Falling From the Sky, a magnificent song, which has two signs nailed to a tree. One says Free Range Eggs for Sale and the other says No Admittance.

How fast do you want to go. About 5 secs. Maybe less. It's the scene where Dylan sings that wonderful love song to Molly about not being wiser but just having been down more roads than you babe-and that's all and having spent more years with his back to the wall and that's all too and with chickens scratching in the straw.



Art is about speed. One doesn't want to spend all day on a simple point like that.
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