Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

farmerman, On my recent cruise and our port of call at Spanish Tenerife Island, we observed some interesting geological variations in a somewhat small area of the island. Teide volcano is the highest point for Spain at about 10,000 feet. We saw lava layers, sand, rock, pebbles, and various kinds of fauna appropriate to the elevation and ground. These islands were created about 3.5 million years ago from volcanic erruptions. I was thinking about you while on tour, and wondered if you are familiar with Tenerife?

We also visited the pyramids of Tenerife that looked similar to the step pyramid of Gaza and those in South America. They don't seem to know the age of those pyramids, but it seems Leif Hayerdahl(sp) seems to have participated in the excavation of this site.

Fascinating place.

0 Replies

You have to remember c.i. that if the lava layers, sand, rock, pebbles, and various kinds of fauna appropriate to the elevation and ground had not been started off about 3.5 million years ago from volcanic erruptions you probably wouldn't have there on your cruise and so unable to report these remarkable scenes to us so enthusistically as would also be the case in the event of another advert catching your eye for, say, the fleshpots of Riga which are all the rage at the moment I gather.

There's probably some Tenerifian having a blimp at the geological features around your back yard reporting back to base in a similar fashion.

In fact, as you must know by now, there's millions of people farting about all around the globe and sending messages back giving very brief descriptions of the ground conditions where they happened to have chosen to visit, some of them chosen by tossing a coin.

They don't get much serious reading done I don't suppose.

What's the tush like is what we want to know. Is it the same the world over, as I imagine Darwin thought, or are there dramatic differences associated with religious tradition? What's the point of travelling if you aren't going to research an important matter like that. Who cares about sand, rock, pebbles and fauna. They have no religious significance and thus I would say you are off topic.

0 Replies

Never been to Tenerife. Only thing I know about it is the tectonic framework and about the Jumbo Jet accident that occured there in the late 70's(?).

Reading spendi's post I can only reinforce the observation made by someone of the HillWIlliam persuasion that "Its five oclock somewhere"

0 Replies

How cool is this...

Quote:

In a retrieval once thought unattainable, scientists have recovered and identified proteins in a bone of a well-preserved Tyrannosaurus rex that lived and died and was fossilized 68 million years ago.

The scientists say the success, with advanced research techniques, opens the door for the first time to the exploration of molecular-level relationships of ancient, extinct animals, instead of just relying on their skeletal remains.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/science/13dino.html

And how predictable is it that such new technical tools will reveal a history completely inimical to the fundamentalist mind, whether christian or muslim or any other such.

0 Replies

farmerman wrote:

Quote:

Yes I can, do, and will continue to do so. When I touched the hot stove, I had evidence that the stove is hot. If I touch the stove a second or third time and it is still hot, it reinforces my conclusion that the stove is hot, but even if the stove has cooled the next time that I touch it, I will still believe that it was hot the first time I touched it.

Unless the stove is glowing red, I cannot prove to you that the stove is hot. You will either believe me or not or check for yourself or not

By only copying the smidgeon of my post , you misquote it. By your really silly example abover, I see that you sort of agree with me. Your "experience" is not evidence till its communicated or the experience is proven to others. Like a rule of evidence. You can keep touching the stove and experiencing the heat and further cripple yourself

. I, on the other hand, will look to see whether your hand is badly burned or I will directly measure the temp and decide whethre you need hospitalization. Your examples are sometimes kind of fattuous there foxy. Try to work on better examples.

I didn't mean to misquote you. I took the portion of your quote that I thought relevant to my example. You however are distorting my example into something it is not. I did not mention discomfort or injury at all. I did illustrate how real knowledge can be gained through experience and testimony without benefit of scientific theory or principle.

It is here that we seem to have our greatest point of disagreement. You seem to be arguing a case for scientific principles being the only authentic or reliable means of verifying information. I am arguing that there is equally valid information that cannot be authenticated or verified through any known scientific process.

Quote:

Angels coming out your sockets is much better becasue it requires some handy dandy evidence collecting to turn experience (or "visions") into some sort of evidence of reality.

I have never witnessed angels coming out of my or anybody else's sockets so I have no experience with that or any reason to consider it. Should I see it occur or many others who I believe to be sensible and honest people testify to such a phenomenon, however, then I would reasonably have to consider that as a possibility.

Quote:

Your tales from experience could just be myth to me, unless youve got evidence more compelling than your word of mouth. You know Im gonna keep testing your experience (I mean if I really cared to) until I find that its got merit or its hokum. Science is able to test temprature but not angels coming out your sockets

Absolutely anything I tell you or anything you read or anything you are taught could just be myth. Darwin's theory could just be myth. But at some point, through our own experience or through testimony of others that we choose to trust, we all come to believe in many things that we have never heard, seen, nor experienced in any recognizable form but we trust to be fact. I have never seen an atom or an ion or a proton but I believe they exist.

Quote:

Ive stated before that ID is hokum because it contains within it, its own seeds of falsification by direct evidence . (Sudden appearance, Irreducible complexity, intermediate species , genetic linkages among supra taxa)l

0 Replies

From the New York Times science story mentioned by Blatham:

Quote:

In a retrieval once thought unattainable, scientists have recovered and identified proteins in a bone of a well-preserved Tyrannosaurus rex that lived and died and was fossilized 68 million years ago.

The scientists say the success, with advanced research techniques, opens the door for the first time to the exploration of molecular-level relationships of ancient, extinct animals, instead of just relying on their skeletal remains.

Will this shed any light on evolutionary modifications of protein? Dr. Behe's "irreducible complexity" hypothesis focused on protein systems in biological cells.

0 Replies

Bernie wrote-

Quote:

The scientists say the success, with advanced research techniques, opens the door for the first time to the exploration of molecular-level relationships of ancient, extinct animals, instead of just relying on their skeletal remains.

It opens the door on some lush funding operations through which taxpayers are privileged to be abled to contribute to the holidays and pastimes of the members of an esoteric sect whose sales drive has hit pay dirt.

The man on the Clapham omnibus must be over the moon with joy and anticipation. There's nothing like some molecular-level relationships of ancient, extinct animals to get the blood pumping through the sclerotic tubes of your average garbage man. It's not right that we have had to rely on skeletal remains for all these years just so we know which way up we all are.

It's really cool. It's "up there" as Andy would have said. They'll be on easy street. Gluttony and orgiastic depravity in an Ethiopian river valley is dead cool and the press handouts can be cobbled together in no time. Nobody will understand them except fellow members of the sect and they won't rock the boat I don't think.

0 Replies

Bernie wrote-

Quote:

And how predictable is it that such new technical tools will reveal a history completely inimical to the fundamentalist mind, whether christian or muslim or any other such.

Sheesh! We thought that the history, completely inimical to the fundamentalist mind whether christian or muslim or any other such had already been revealed.

It makes it look like they are still seeking further proof which suggests they are not all that sure yet. Perhaps they will only be sure when the cow runs dry. I can't imagine it having the slightest effect on IDers.

So what's it for then?

0 Replies

spendi, With better research techniques and equipment, our knowledge about the foundation of living organisms - past and present - will increase diametrically. Increasing numbers of people will diverge from "creationism" to "evolution."

0 Replies

wande asked-

Quote:

Will this shed any light on evolutionary modifications of protein? Dr. Behe's "irreducible complexity" hypothesis focused on protein systems in biological cells.

It might shove them a little further up the asymptote of understanding but I have little doubt that the limit will be farther off than ever as new complexities are discovered and more "qualified" staff thus recruited to explore them.

I have thought sometimes that the growth of money is such that it might result in the government being frightened of it all getting into the hands of those who create it and thus wasting it may be the only other option if preventing more being created cannot be contemplated.

0 Replies

c.i. wrote-

Quote:

spendi, With better research techniques and equipment, our knowledge about the foundation of living organisms - past and present - will increase diametrically. Increasing numbers of people will diverge from "creationism" to "evolution."

If that isn't a political agenda I'll eat my boots.

0 Replies

To FM, I did omit one salient point in reference to your observation here:

Quote:

Your tales from experience could just be myth to me, unless youve got evidence more compelling than your word of mouth. You know Im gonna keep testing your experience (I mean if I really cared to) until I find that its got merit or its hokum. Science is able to test temprature but not angels coming out your sockets

0 Replies

People under hypnosis will imagine extreme heat or cold and they will even develop blisters as a reaction to it.

Human observation alone is not reliable.

And it's one thing to claim that a fire is hot. That is not an extraordinary claim. It's quite another to claim that you've experienced something out of the ordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

ID is an extraordinary claim and it will require extraordinary evidence before anyone should waste any more time on it than they would trying to prove the tooth fairy (for exactly the same reasons). The Tooth fairy and ID are EQUIVALENT in likelihood and they deserve exactly the same degree of consideration as possible realities.

0 Replies

Foxy wrote-

Quote:

Nevertheless, every single person will know what his/her experience was and will be able to accurately report it and not a single reported experience will be less valid because it cannot be tested or proved or disproved.

That's right. Often times, when I have been involved in some trysting in secluded premises I have chosen music which my personal experience had informed me was more suitable for such occasions than that style of music which one presumes anti-IDers prefer. Mahler say or, for asthetically attenuated occasions, some Gregorian chanting recorded in stone-built echo chambers.

I've often wondered whether I was out of date and not SC.

0 Replies

ros-

You might try learning to decode "salon" wit.

0 Replies

rosborne979 wrote:

People under hypnosis will imagine extreme heat or cold and they will even develop blisters as a reaction to it.

Human observation alone is not reliable.

And it's one thing to claim that a fire is hot. That is not an extraordinary claim. It's quite another to claim that you've experienced something out of the ordinary. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

ID is an extraordinary claim and it will require extraordinary evidence before anyone should waste any more time on it than they would trying to prove the tooth fairy (for exactly the same reasons). The Tooth fairy and ID are EQUIVALENT in likelihood and they deserve exactly the same degree of consideration as possible realities.

But those who claim to have experienced God and via that experience know ID to be fact number into the millions. Can you say something is extraordinary when many millions of people, that cloud of witnesses, testify to the experience? Not belief based on teaching, mind you, but experience.

0 Replies

Foxy-

Did you see that quote I placed on the record from the writings of Joseph Joubert. He offers proof of your cloud of witnesses, which is a very nice phrase.

If you would like me to type it out again, his work being too obscure for Google, I am at your service. A nod and a wink is enough for a blind horse.

0 Replies

It's actually worrying that anti-IDers demote inner experiences so far.

Perhaps, should they come to power, they might go so far as to deny the existence of such superstitious ephemera altogether.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

But those who claim to have experienced God and via that experience know ID to be fact number into the millions. Can you say something is extraordinary when many millions of people, that cloud of witnesses, testify to the experience? Not belief based on teaching, mind you, but experience.

A classic example of the argumentum ad populum[/i]. To put that in terms which Fox can understand, it's the same as when she was a child and her mother asked her: "I suppose if everyone else jumped off a cliff, you'd have to do it, too?"

0 Replies

Which has been shown to be foolishly naive by the Theory of Large Groups.

And there's the famous quote from Yossarian which is too difficult to explain with pub time coming galloping up.

Would you have the candidate with the least votes become president?

0 Replies

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know