97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 08:00 am
farmerman wrote:
foxy
Quote:
Trust me, there are no official religious views on ID, other than various (and diverse) teachings within some denominational groups, so any differences between Ken Millers POV vs the 'official religious views on ID' are based on faulty assumption from the beginning.
Hadda laugh at this. Your comment is so open ended .
1There are no "official religious views

2However there are diverse teachings within some denominational groups

3Therefore ken Millers views (v the nonextistent (according to you) official views on ID )are just based upon faulty assumptions that hes made'.
FYI Ken Miller ays exactly what youve stated. He gets his views from the Catholic Church , which is, even now, internally wrestling with ID as a convenient dodge where they can appear to be scientific , yet practice their "old time religion" unmolested by evidence

DO you even know what the hell youre talking about? You wanna have it so many ways that you leave yourself free of any positions at all.


Do you know what you are talking about? My comments were not restricted to the Catholic Church but did allow for different denominational interpretations/doctrine re I.D. that could include the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church speaks authoritatively only to Catholics. It does not speak for me nor many millions of other Christians, Jews, and/or people of other religions who believe in ID.

Therefore any quarrel Ken Miller might have with the Catholic Church's official position on ID could certainly be interesting and even instructive within the framework of this discussion, but it is virtually no argument at all within the context of my own argument on this subject.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 08:04 am
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
Trust me, there are no official religious views on ID, other than various (and diverse) teachings within some denominational groups, so any differences between Ken Millers POV vs the 'official religious views on ID' are based on faulty assumption from the beginning.


I have made that point a good few times. Anti-IDers need to think the contrary in order that, much like in my previous post, they have a target they can see sitting on the branch, fast asleep, about two feet from their muzzle-loader. If they once allowed a moving somewhat diaphanous target to appear in their imaginations, and such a target ID actually is, they wouldn't know what to shoot at and perhaps might begin firing randomly until the men in white coats arrived to take them away.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 08:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
What facts or figures are you going to use to rebut ID especially if that was the basis for Evolution?


ID is not the basis for evolution. What are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 08:21 am
Foxfyre wrote:
The Catholic Church speaks authoritatively only to Catholics. It does not speak for me nor many millions of other Christians, Jews, and/or people of other religions who believe in ID.


Authoritative statements of the Catholic Church are only published in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or dogmas by a pope or an ecumenical council).

What some Catholics say is not authoritave nor is ID is on those above mentioned "lists".
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 08:38 am
farmerman wrote:
foxy
Quote:
S/he with experience who can see that his/her experience does not conflict with accepted scientific theory?

Or the one who professes the scientific theory to be all that there is and denies that which he has not personally experienced?
Without miring yourself further, can you explain in more detail how you used deductive reasoning to arrive at these points?


Well I'm not adverse to humoring a grumpy old man, so let's see:

1) The blind men who each touch one part of the elephant have very different ideas about what an elephant is and each will describe it differently.

2) The men who see a whole elephant from a distance or who have had an elephant competently described to them will have a much more accurate impression of an elephant than will the blind men but will still have limited knowledge of an elephant.

3) Those who see and touch all of an elephant will essentially agree on what an elephant looks like as well as what it feels like, smells like , feels like, etc.

4) Some who have never seen nor experienced an elephant will deny that they exist.

From this information one can deduct the following:

1. Even experience and knowledge can provide incomplete information.

2. Good information is possible without personal experience, but experience produces more complete knowledge.

3. Faulty or imperfect information does not negate the existance of good information.

3. No amount of denial changes reality.
________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 09:02 am
Quote:
The Coulter Hoax: How Ann Coulter Exposed the Intelligent Design Movement
(By Peter Olofsson, Skeptical Inquirer Magazine, April 9, 2007)

In the summer of 2006, I heard that a new book called Godless presented an insightful and devastating criticism of the theory of evolution. Although I learned that its author, Ann Coulter, is not a scientist but a lawyer turned author and TV pundit, she nevertheless appeared to be an intelligent and well-educated person, so I started reading.

At first I was puzzled. There did not seem to be anything new; only tired and outdated antievolution arguments involving moths, finches, and fruit flies. But it wasn't until Coulter dusted off the old Piltdown man story that I suddenly realized: it was a hoax! And it was brilliant.

Coulter has very cleverly written a fake criticism of evolution, much like the way NYU physicist Alan Sokal in 1996 published a fake physics article in a literary journal, an affair that has become known as the "Sokal hoax." A self-proclaimed "old unabashed leftist," Sokal was disturbed by the sloppily antiscientific, postmodernistic mentality that had started to replace reason and rationality within the academic left and ingeniously made his point by managing to get his nonsense article published by the very people he wished to expose.

Coulter's aim at antiscience is at the other end of the political spectrum. An equally unabashed rightist, she is apparently disturbed by how factions within the political right abandon their normally rational standards when it comes to the issue of evolution. However, whereas Sokal revealed his hoax in a separate article, Coulter challenges her readers to find out the truth for themselves. Without claiming to do justice to Coulter's multifaceted and sometimes subtle satire, I will attempt to outline some of her most amusing and salient points.

The attacks on evolution these days come not so much from traditional creationists, adhering to the literal interpretation of Genesis, as from proponents of intelligent design (ID), the notion that some biological systems are so complicated that they must have been designed. Unlike creationists, the ID proponents refuse to identify the designer; in particular, they do not mention God. As a matter of fact, design is only defined as "anything else but chance."

A problem with ID that has been pointed out over and over is that it isn't much of a scientific theory, as it does not attempt to explain anything, only criticize evolutionary biology. Coulter makes this point subtly. She nicely summarizes the theory of evolution by listing the main driving forces, mutation and natural selection, and the conclusion, creation of new species. And the corresponding summary of ID? Absent! Admirably clever.

Two of the most vehement ID advocates are Michael Behe and William Dembski. Behe is a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University and one of very few ID proponents who is actually a scientist with an established research record. In 1996 Behe published Darwin's Black Box, which claims to present a biochemical challenge to evolutionary biology, a claim that has been thoroughly opposed, for example, by Brown University biology professor Kenneth Miller. It is hard for most of us to follow the technical arguments, but Behe would be the first to admit (and in fact does so on his academic Web site) that he is very lonely among his peers in advocating ID.

Coulter makes fun of Behe by vastly exaggerating his claims. For example, she claims that Behe has "disproved evolution" by demonstrating it to be a "mathematical impossibility." The truth is that Behe, who has no expertise in mathematics, accepts much of evolutionary theory.

On occasion, Coulter's satire is quite esoteric. Such is the case when she states, "Behe disproved evolution?-unless evolution is simply a nondisprovable pseudoscience, like astrology." To understand the subtle linking of Behe to astrology, one must be familiar with Behe's testimony in the Dover trial in which he had to concede that if intelligent design was accepted as science, one must also accept astrology.

The other front figure, William Dembski, is a research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. I think Coulter is perhaps overly sarcastic when she lists his background: doctorate in mathematics, master of divinity degree, postdoctoral work in mathematics, physics, and computer science.

The sarcasm here is that Coulter lists postdoctoral positions in physics, mathematics, and computer science, but when one looks up Dembski's publication record, none of these positions led to any published research. In fact, Dembski has published precisely one original research article in a reputable journal: a 1990 paper on probability theory. Coulter goes on to refer to Dembski's "complicated mathematical formulas" and "statistical models" and jokes that there is yet no serious response. In reality, the few mathematicians who have bothered examining Dembski's mathematics have been completely unimpressed. A nice summary and evaluation of Dembski's oeuvre was written for the Dover trial by renowned mathematician Jeffrey Shallit. Shallit's conclusion in one word: pseudomathematics.

**************************************

In conclusion, Coulter has written a biting satire over the trend of anti-intellectualism that clouds part of the conservative ideology, which is otherwise based on principle and reason. If I have any objection to Coulter's piece, it would be that it is a bit lengthy, but perhaps this too is part of the satire, as some antievolution pieces tend to be pretty verbose. There are also some things I don't fully understand, for example several references to bestiality and some seemingly nonsequitur remarks about Cher and Elton John. Considering how wonderfully multilayered Coulter's writing is, I am sure there is a perfectly logical explanation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 09:21 am
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
The Coulter Hoax: How Ann Coulter Exposed the Intelligent Design Movement
(By Peter Olofsson, Skeptical Inquirer Magazine, April 9, 2007)

In the summer of 2006, I heard that a new book called Godless presented an insightful and devastating criticism of the theory of evolution. Although I learned that its author, Ann Coulter, is not a scientist but a lawyer turned author and TV pundit, she nevertheless appeared to be an intelligent and well-educated person, so I started reading.

At first I was puzzled. There did not seem to be anything new; only tired and outdated antievolution arguments involving moths, finches, and fruit flies. But it wasn't until Coulter dusted off the old Piltdown man story that I suddenly realized: it was a hoax! And it was brilliant.

Coulter has very cleverly written a fake criticism of evolution, much like the way NYU physicist Alan Sokal in 1996 published a fake physics article in a literary journal, an affair that has become known as the "Sokal hoax." A self-proclaimed "old unabashed leftist," Sokal was disturbed by the sloppily antiscientific, postmodernistic mentality that had started to replace reason and rationality within the academic left and ingeniously made his point by managing to get his nonsense article published by the very people he wished to expose.

Coulter's aim at antiscience is at the other end of the political spectrum. An equally unabashed rightist, she is apparently disturbed by how factions within the political right abandon their normally rational standards when it comes to the issue of evolution. However, whereas Sokal revealed his hoax in a separate article, Coulter challenges her readers to find out the truth for themselves. Without claiming to do justice to Coulter's multifaceted and sometimes subtle satire, I will attempt to outline some of her most amusing and salient points.

The attacks on evolution these days come not so much from traditional creationists, adhering to the literal interpretation of Genesis, as from proponents of intelligent design (ID), the notion that some biological systems are so complicated that they must have been designed. Unlike creationists, the ID proponents refuse to identify the designer; in particular, they do not mention God. As a matter of fact, design is only defined as "anything else but chance."

A problem with ID that has been pointed out over and over is that it isn't much of a scientific theory, as it does not attempt to explain anything, only criticize evolutionary biology. Coulter makes this point subtly. She nicely summarizes the theory of evolution by listing the main driving forces, mutation and natural selection, and the conclusion, creation of new species. And the corresponding summary of ID? Absent! Admirably clever.

Two of the most vehement ID advocates are Michael Behe and William Dembski. Behe is a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University and one of very few ID proponents who is actually a scientist with an established research record. In 1996 Behe published Darwin's Black Box, which claims to present a biochemical challenge to evolutionary biology, a claim that has been thoroughly opposed, for example, by Brown University biology professor Kenneth Miller. It is hard for most of us to follow the technical arguments, but Behe would be the first to admit (and in fact does so on his academic Web site) that he is very lonely among his peers in advocating ID.

Coulter makes fun of Behe by vastly exaggerating his claims. For example, she claims that Behe has "disproved evolution" by demonstrating it to be a "mathematical impossibility." The truth is that Behe, who has no expertise in mathematics, accepts much of evolutionary theory.

On occasion, Coulter's satire is quite esoteric. Such is the case when she states, "Behe disproved evolution?-unless evolution is simply a nondisprovable pseudoscience, like astrology." To understand the subtle linking of Behe to astrology, one must be familiar with Behe's testimony in the Dover trial in which he had to concede that if intelligent design was accepted as science, one must also accept astrology.

The other front figure, William Dembski, is a research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. I think Coulter is perhaps overly sarcastic when she lists his background: doctorate in mathematics, master of divinity degree, postdoctoral work in mathematics, physics, and computer science.

The sarcasm here is that Coulter lists postdoctoral positions in physics, mathematics, and computer science, but when one looks up Dembski's publication record, none of these positions led to any published research. In fact, Dembski has published precisely one original research article in a reputable journal: a 1990 paper on probability theory. Coulter goes on to refer to Dembski's "complicated mathematical formulas" and "statistical models" and jokes that there is yet no serious response. In reality, the few mathematicians who have bothered examining Dembski's mathematics have been completely unimpressed. A nice summary and evaluation of Dembski's oeuvre was written for the Dover trial by renowned mathematician Jeffrey Shallit. Shallit's conclusion in one word: pseudomathematics.

**************************************

In conclusion, Coulter has written a biting satire over the trend of anti-intellectualism that clouds part of the conservative ideology, which is otherwise based on principle and reason. If I have any objection to Coulter's piece, it would be that it is a bit lengthy, but perhaps this too is part of the satire, as some antievolution pieces tend to be pretty verbose. There are also some things I don't fully understand, for example several references to bestiality and some seemingly nonsequitur remarks about Cher and Elton John. Considering how wonderfully multilayered Coulter's writing is, I am sure there is a perfectly logical explanation.


At last, somebody actually has the brains to recognize Coulter's work as mostly satire, and at times brilliant satire at that despite her tendency to sometimes stray into bad taste or inappropriate humor. And yes Coulter takes her shots at the Right wingnuts as well as the wacko Left. I do know however, that she agrees with me that ID has no place in science education, but neither can science dispute its place in the grand scheme of things. And she is a believer in ID. Smile

Conclusion: 1) ID should not be taught as science. 2) ID should not be disputed via science curriculum. 3) There is nothing wrong with a science teacher not mentioning or mentioning ID as one of the theories of the origin, design, and evolution of the universe and all of Planet Earth and the living things on it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 09:41 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
What facts or figures are you going to use to rebut ID especially if that was the basis for Evolution?


ID is not the basis for evolution. What are you talking about?


How do you know unless you can dispute ID for which there is no scientific means to challenge? How can you say for certain that there is no intelligent design behind the whole process of evolution? What scientific basis do you use to disprove the notion of a "Creator" being the author and designor of all that we recognize and identify as science?

There is no known science that supports ID. And there is no known science to dispute ID.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 09:42 am
¨...and all the living things on it...¨ sure leaves out all the fauna found after biblical times - especailly those creatures living in deep ocean waters.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 10:12 am
spendi
Quote:
The answer is, of course, as a few discerning viewers may well know, that the alliance set against ID is disturbed by such a notion because if it wasn't, feigning being disturbed aside, it would lose its only acceptable lever to prise open the money pot it sees glowing invitingly on the horizon once the forces of darkness are let loose.

Obviously such an alliance has infantry as well as officers and very few of the former have any experience of the forces of darkness being let loose, having been brought up in the manner of motherly decorum, and are thus completely oblivious to their existence and easily led into not only underestimating them but to not even allowing them any consideration.
.

I dont imagine that you could convince an eskimo to buy warm clothes. You say much but produce little actual thought. Are you aware of this fact?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 10:17 am
foxy
Quote:
At last, somebody actually has the brains to recognize Coulter's work as mostly satire, and at times brilliant satire at that despite her tendency to sometimes stray into bad taste or inappropriate humor. And yes Coulter takes her shots at the Right wingnuts as well as the wacko Left
Whether this writer knows it or not, Dembski actually wrote her chapter on ID in her book "Godless" Im afraid its a bit of ass backward thinking that you like foxy. Now someone claims that shes actually a modern day "Mark Twain" when her career as a writer is in question. (I believe shes down to like 11 papers that carry her drivvle)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 10:35 am
One tends to be a bit peevish when one's panties are all in a bunch. A bit out of sorts today aren't we FM?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 10:40 am
Quote:
) The blind men who each touch one part of the elephant have very different ideas about what an elephant is and each will describe it differently.
Foxy, most principles in science arent "touching the elephant" so, in that respect, youre misapplying homilies again. Anyway the six wise men from Hindustan were not demonstarting deductive reasoning at all , in fact their s was an example of a complete fallacy in logic.(ooops) SO if you wish to use the example, knock yerself out.
Quote:

How do you know unless you can dispute ID for which there is no scientific means to challenge? How can you say for certain that there is no intelligent design behind the whole process of evolution?


Scientific evidence is not "revealed truth" it is a pile of testable, falsifiable and mostly circumstantial evidence that , so far, no countervailing competing theory has been able to knock down.

ID operates from a totally non-factual basis of pure assumption. ALL the work that has recently been done to look for "design" and pattern in life and the Universe has come up empty. Those of you who wish to embrace some silly notion that "because something looks complicated to me, it must have had a designer (who shall remain unnamed so we dont look like Tennessee hicks). If testing evolution is simply a matter of knocking out ID, thats no real problem because ID has , within it, the seeds of its own falsifiability and falsification. Sad but fact .
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 10:47 am
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
) The blind men who each touch one part of the elephant have very different ideas about what an elephant is and each will describe it differently.
Foxy, most principles in science arent "touching the elephant" so, in that respect, youre misapplying homilies again. Anyway the six wise men from Hindustan were not demonstarting deductive reasoning at all , in fact their s was an example of a complete fallacy in logic.(ooops) SO if you wish to use the example, knock yerself out.
Quote:

How do you know unless you can dispute ID for which there is no scientific means to challenge? How can you say for certain that there is no intelligent design behind the whole process of evolution?


Scientific evidence is not "revealed truth" it is a pile of testable, falsifiable and mostly circumstantial evidence that , so far, no countervailing competing theory has been able to knock down.

ID operates from a totally non-factual basis of pure assumption. ALL the work that has recently been done to look for "design" and pattern in life and the Universe has come up empty. Those of you who wish to embrace some silly notion that "because something looks complicated to me, it must have had a designer (who shall remain unnamed so we dont look like Tennessee hicks). If testing evolution is simply a matter of knocking out ID, thats no real problem because ID has , within it, the seeds of its own falsifiability and falsification. Sad but fact .


I did not say that the 'blind men' were using deductive reasoning FM. I used deductive reasoning to arrive at certain conclusions that were both verifiable and falsifiable based on the information we were provided by the blind men and others. Somebody using deductive reasoning rather than kneejerk judgmentalism might have been able to see that. Smile

But I'll take your bait. You said "ID has , within it, the seeds of its own falsifiability and falsification. Sad but fact ." I would be fascinated to see your rationale for that statement.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 11:31 am
Foxfyre,

Intelligent Design was presented as an alternative explanation to the role played by "natural selection" in biological evolution.

In 1992, Dr. Michael Behe attempted to show that natural selection does not explain the evolution of complex biological systems. Behe stated that a complex system is "irreducible" if it would not be able to function were one of its components missing.

Since 1992, several biologists have shown that the examples given by Dr. Behe, although complex, are not irreducible. The individual components in each example were shown to be "selectable" through natural processes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 11:40 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Coulter's aim at antiscience is at the other end of the political spectrum. An equally unabashed rightist, she is apparently disturbed by how factions within the political right abandon their normally rational standards when it comes to the issue of evolution.


Here again, being "disturbed" by such an overthrow of expectations (normally rational standards) is a device used, either out of laziness or delicacy, to avoid the obvious explanation. That is that the factions mentioned are keenly aware that the issue of evolution, and particularly how it is used by some other factions, raises questions of great importance to the social life of human beings which most other areas of scientific study do not.


It is all very well summarizing the theory of evolution by listing the main driving forces as mutation and natural selection but if it is taught that man is an animal then why isn't the natural selection in humans as promiscuously determined as it is in the animal world? There is no natural selection without copulation. Anti-IDers may well copulate but IDers don't.
Anti-IDers must see the act devoid of psychological content and purely determined by a physical process alone.

fm wrote-

Quote:
You say much but produce little actual thought. Are you aware of this fact?


That is just another ignorant assertion which facilitates avoiding any answers to my previous two posts. We are so used to the slipshod methodology employed in such dire strategies that we can but laugh. We might well also wonder if any intelligent persons seek out your company when you cannot seem to prevent yourself from using bald assertions instead of thought and can be presumed to deploy the method on all occasions.

How can I be aware of "this fact" when it isn't a fact.

I notice you use "little" rather than "no" as you hide away in relativism.

And "actual" is an unnecessary word and we all know the explanation for those.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 11:47 am
wandeljw wrote:
Foxfyre,

Intelligent Design was presented as an alternative explanation to the role played by "natural selection" in biological evolution.

In 1992, Dr. Michael Behe attempted to show that natural selection does not explain the evolution of complex biological systems. Behe stated that a complex system is "irreducible" if it would not be able to function were one of its components missing.

Since 1992, several biologists have shown that the examples given by Dr. Behe, although complex, are not irreducible. The individual components in each example were shown to be "selectable" through natural processes.


Well are we arguing one scientist's opinion versus others here? (If so, I'm getting plenty of practice there on the global warming thread.) Or are we arguing ID versus science here?

At no time have I said there were not people out there who argue for ID as opposed to natural selection aka Theory of Evolution. Of course there are people out there who do that. And while I am very strong that ALL science should always be subject to challenge or questions--if it can't stand up to challenge or questions, how good is it?--I think anybody arguing against natural selection based on religious beliefs is either extremely ignorant or in a profound state of denial or just plain nuts.

Conversely, I am arguing that for many of us, there is no quarrel between ID and the Theory of Evolution and you don't have to discount or discredit one in order to accept the other.

Now if you just want to bash the nuts here and think the secondary argument is not appropriate for this thread, that's cool. Just say so.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 12:09 pm
What are you scared of Foxy that keeps you debating at the level anti-IDers maintain. I am providing you with opportunities to present a grown up ladies' side on these matters and you are refusing them.

Quote:
Conversely, I am arguing that for many of us, there is no quarrel between ID and the Theory of Evolution and you don't have to discount or discredit one in order to accept the other.


As far as this thread is concerned that is very old hat. It is anti-IDers who continually return to it. IDers play in more refined areas than laboratories and they do not live on bread alone.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 12:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well are we arguing one scientist's opinion versus others here? (If so, I'm getting plenty of practice there on the global warming thread.) Or are we arguing ID versus science here?


Well, there are many versions of ID. Most versions are essentially religious rather than scientific. In my opinion, only Dr. Behe's hypothesis was presented in a way that can be considered scientific. However, Dr. Behe's hypothesis is a failed hypothesis. It has been refuted numerous times.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 9 Apr, 2007 12:19 pm
spendius wrote:
What are you scared of Foxy that keeps you debating at the level anti-IDers maintain. I am providing you with opportunities to present a grown up ladies' side on these matters and you are refusing them.

Quote:
Conversely, I am arguing that for many of us, there is no quarrel between ID and the Theory of Evolution and you don't have to discount or discredit one in order to accept the other.


As far as this thread is concerned that is very old hat. It is anti-IDers who continually return to it. IDers play in more refined areas than laboratories and they do not live on bread alone.


Well, I have not yet achieved the level of sophistication of your communication skills, Spendi, and there you have me at a disadvantage. Smile I am more of an Occam's Razor kind of debater. (Some call it broken record.)

I have appreciated your take on this, however, and I suspect you and I are on, or nearly on, the same page which is comforting. I am frequently all alone in my point of view on these things. Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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