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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 09:03 am
DISCOVERY INSTITUTE UPDATE

Quote:
Kingdom of Love
(by Rikki Hall, Editorial Opinion, Knoxville Metropulse, March 30, 2007)

Creationists welcomed their new leaders to Knoxville last weekend for a convention held by the Discovery Institute, a Seattle non-profit that acts as a publishing house and endowment for proponents of intelligent design (ID). The institute supports a dozen senior fellows and more than two dozen other scientists. Staff scientists are working to develop an intelligent design curriculum, and advance copies of Explore Evolution , a biology textbook soon to be released by the organization, were available at the convention. Program Director Stephen Meyer told the crowd it is "premature" to teach intelligent design in public schools. Meyer said, "We encourage people not to push this in schools right now."

Such honesty is a refreshing trait in the new generation of Creationists. By abandoning traditional Creationist arguments, intelligent design advocates gained breathing room. In his best-selling 1996 book Darwin's Black Box , featured afternoon speaker Michael Behe admits evolution by descent with variation is a powerful and valid explanation for observable biological change, and convention moderator Lee Strobel said of the panel of speakers, "We all admit evolution exists." Strobel even said public schools should "teach more evolution."

Instead of attacking evolutionary theory, ID proponents claim to have discovered new evidence. In his book, Behe, a biochemistry professor at Lehigh University, declared modern molecular techniques had lifted the lid on conventional biology, revealing complex chemical cascades and molecular machines too elaborate to be explained by evolutionary theory. ID proponents claim there is too much information in genes to have accumulated naturally, too much biodiversity appearing too rapidly in the fossil record and molecular devices too complex to assemble by chance. The heart of their approach is "the design inference," an age-old philosophical notion positing that we can perceive whether something formed by chance or by design. A watch implies a watchmaker.

Philosopher Jay Richards told the audience there are too many universal constants set too precisely to have aligned perfectly by chance, so there must be a purpose to our existence. He has discovered that purpose. Earth is positioned not only within the solar system's narrow life-friendly zone, but also within the galaxy's astronomer-friendly zone. We are perfectly positioned to see what is around us, so our purpose is to discover.

Such proclamations get at the core of ID proponents' motivation, which is to preserve room in the universe for purpose and meaning. Their real opponent is not evolution, but materialism, which is a cornerstone of not just biology, but all science. They feel science has grabbed too much of the world and left no place for God.

Behe's book was carefully stripped of religious content, God reduced to "an intelligent agent," and Christianity similarly reduced to lurking at the Knoxville convention. Dozens of volunteers from Cedar Springs Presbyterian Church, Campus Navigators and other local groups wore yellow shirts emblazoned simply "Darwin vs. Design," and overt religious symbols and slogans were largely absent from displays and literature. There was no opening prayer. The four speakers discussed their personal faith only in passing.

Lee Strobel, a law student turned journalist, explained how his wife's conversion to Christianity caused him to revisit his atheism and discover evidence of a designer in the universe. Strobel's Yale law degree was not the only elite credential. Meyer earned a degree in philosophy of science from Cambridge, Richards a degree from Princeton, and Professor Behe a doctorate from the University of Pennsylvania.

For $55 ($5 for students), attendees saw all four speakers, a few video clips promoting intelligent design, and a question-and-answer session moderated by Strobel, the only speaker not a Discovery-Institute fellow. In addition to advance copies of the new textbook, DVDs were available for purchase, and donors earned their choice of eight books published by Discovery Institute, one title for donations of $100 or more, three titles for donations over $300.

Both Behe and Meyer expect to publish books this year, Meyer promising predictions derived from intelligent design and a discussion of how ID can be falsified, one of the formal requirements for elevating a philosophical argument to the status of scientific theory. Though he readily admits ID is not ready for public science classes, Meyer brims with confidence that he has scientists "on the defensive." After the scheduled talks, his advice for fans was, "Don't let them intimidate you."

Meyer published a philosophical criticism of evolution in a small peer-reviewed journal, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington , in August 2004. The journal is affiliated with the Smithsonian Institution, and the managing editor has come under fire from Smithsonian biologist Jonathan Coddington and others. Meyer's paper argued that the sudden appearance of diverse animal phyla in Cambrian fossils represents too much new information for evolution to explain and therefore suggests the work of a "rational agent."

The Cambrian Explosion is not the mystery Meyer wishes it to be. Immediately preceded geologically by early evidence of tissues, organs and multicellular life, the Cambrian era also marks the first appearance of calcium-hardened tissues like bones and shells. Hard-bodied creatures are far more likely to leave fossil traces than their soft-bodied ancestors, and this combination of increased fossilization and emerging multicellular life accounts for the abundance of Cambrian fossils.

Because Meyer does not discuss how his "rational agent" might have acted nor attempt to quantify how much information is too much, his argument remains philosophical, not scientific. The relatively young branch of mathematics called information theory could help ID proponents strengthen their case, but their forays into math appear limited to irrelevant exaggerations of biological probabilities and absurd claims like Strobel's "Nature can't produce information."

Behe's notion of "irreducible complexity" could be expressed mathematically, but he seems uninterested in doing so. When asked about this, he said, "One problem with developing mathematical formulas is that your audience is necessarily limited." Like Creationism, ID is an idea tailored for a friendly crowd, not for skeptics. Though convention promoters promised evidence for Darwinian evolution would be presented along with evidence for ID, all the speakers favored intelligent design, and UT graduate students handing out literature on evolution were forced to stand on the Clinch Avenue viaduct, too far from convention-center doors to interact with most attendees.

Leaders of the ID movement are scientifically literate. Meyer in particular is a serious student of the philosophy of science, clever and articulate enough to debate critics when necessary. Whether he is in a controlled environment before a friendly crowd or being interviewed for TV or radio, Meyer's art is in what he does not say.

ID proponents say evolution leaves everything to chance. They don't mention that chance is only the raw material upon which natural selection operates. They say evolution is purposeless, but the theory implicitly endows all life with the purpose of reproduction. That purpose might be too sexual to sit comfortably with Christians, but evolution can be viewed as an unbroken chain of motherly love stretching back through human history into our mammalian, reptilian and more primitive forebears. We are family back to the first cells, and before that, it was momma muck that obeyed God's command to bring forth life.

Perhaps the biggest secret ID proponents do not want to discuss is that there is no conflict between Biblical creation and science. Evolution is a love story just like the Bible.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 10:57 am
Mike Behe said
Quote:
Like Creationism, ID is an idea tailored for a friendly crowd, not for skeptics.
Laughing Smile Laughing Smile Laughing .

Do I see a "shut up and deal" being proposed.?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 11:46 am
That's all it ever was fm. Have you only just found out.

The tug-of-war between the "secular arm" and the ecclesiastics has been going on for hundreds of years. Thousands probably.

Skepticism is just as old as religion. It isn't a new-fangled fashionable discovery of the American scientific elite. Not by a long shot.

The main thing both sides have to watch out for is underestimating the other side.

Only the amateurs and dupes do that.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 01:51 pm
and where do you feel that you fit spendi?
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tkess
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 01:53 pm
I found this thread during my weekly preening practice of Googling my own name. I see that an article I wrote about a month ago has been quoted. Discussion on it seems to be over now, but perhaps I can offer some insight. (If anyone's confused, the post I'm quoting comes from page 919 or thereabouts.)

real life wrote:

Apparently this UA student, Kessinger, is majoring in Propaganda, with a minor in Verbal Sleight of Hand.

The writer offers not one defense of evolution, just insults and innuendo.
I offer no evidence because there's tons of evidence already available. (Actually, I do list one piece of evidence for the Big Bang - the cosmic microwave background radiation - which creationists cannot dispute.) This was an opinions column, not a serious scientific essay, and my goal was to shed light on some of the philosophical reasons why creationism/ID ought to be rejected, not to simply give a laundry list of evidence.

real life wrote:
Kessinger wrote:
(Creationism) is a malicious attack on American technological and scientific progress.

Really? In what way? He doesn't say, he simply accuses.
Obviously, it's going to be difficult to probe the cosmological structure of the universe, develop new drugs, understand abiogenesis, or enhance medicine if we don't understand the naturalistic basis for these things.

real life wrote:
Kessinger wrote:
The creationist effort is spearheaded by two groups: victimized, misguided citizens and politicians who have been fed faulty information,


What faulty information? He doesn't say, he simply accuses.
This is a common creationist tactic - never argue anything, simply demand more, more, more! More transitional forms, more biochemical evidence, more astronomical evidence--nothing is ever enough for you folks! (Also, I had a 700-word limit here.)

real life wrote:
This is really the key: Creationists have the GALL to interpret evidence differently than evolutionists.

(...)

To evolutionists, having a dissenting view is often a crime, indeed. Such is the nature of the 'open inquiry' they espouse.

Yes - they interpret scientific evidence in an unscientific fashion.

You see a large number of dinosaur fossils and say "oh, that's evidence that God killed the dinosaurs in a flood." We see the same fossils and say "oh, that's evidence that a lot of dinosaurs went extinct at one time for some reason." Notwithstanding the fact that the scientific conclusion (the latter) is backed up by far more evidence, there is a good epistemological reason to deny the creationist conclusion.

Consider this: There are two theories regarding lightning. One theory states that lightning is caused by electric potential differences between regions of the sky and the ground. The other theory states that lightning is caused by the hammer of Thor.

Both of these theories have exactly the same evidence supporting them. However, the latter one is not scientific because it is neither naturalistic nor parsimonious. You can still believe it if you want, but it's not science. Don't kid yourself.

Creationists do the exact same thing - and if you had read the column, you would have seen that I addressed this when I stated:

Kessinger wrote:
The simple truth is that scientific theories adhere to principles such as testability, falsifiability, parsimony and naturalism. That last one is the most important: It's what prevents scientists from invoking magic, gremlins or God as explanations for physical phenomena. Creationism has none of these principles. There shouldn't even be a controversy; science clearly wins on its own grounds.


If you can demonstrate how either ID or creationism satisfy any of these properties, go right ahead. In the mean time, the debate is not between creationists and evolutionists. The debate is between creationists and scientists, because what you call "evolution" is the only scientific explanation that fits the facts.
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Region Philbis
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 01:59 pm
tkess,

i have nothing to add to thread, except to say welcome to A2k Smile
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 02:22 pm
Nicly done tkess!
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 03:12 pm
tkess wrote:
I found this thread during my weekly preening practice of Googling my own name. I see that an article I wrote about a month ago has been quoted. Discussion on it seems to be over now, but perhaps I can offer some insight. (If anyone's confused, the post I'm quoting comes from page 919 or thereabouts.)


I am very honored that you showed up here, tkess. Your essay was excellent. I hope it was not wrong for me to quote it without your permission.
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tkess
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 03:53 pm
Thanks, everyone!

It wasn't at all wrong to quote my column - I'm actually very flattered you found it interesting enough to merit discussion.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 04:56 pm
tkess wrote-

Quote:
(Actually, I do list one piece of evidence for the Big Bang - the cosmic microwave background radiation - which creationists cannot dispute.)


Why would they? It's just a long distance station beaming out in a rhythm you haven't picked up on yet. A sort of MJQ which has took so long getting here that it's way out of date like lighting fires rubbing two sticks together is.

Know what I mean boyo?
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tkess
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 05:22 pm
spendius wrote:
Why would they? It's just a long distance station beaming out in a rhythm you haven't picked up on yet. A sort of MJQ which has took so long getting here that it's way out of date like lighting fires rubbing two sticks together is.

Know what I mean boyo?
And they just happened to pick the wavelength that corresponds to a temperature of 3K and matches what the big bang would predict... Wink
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 05:41 pm
tkess wrote-

Quote:
Consider this: There are two theories regarding lightning. One theory states that lightning is caused by electric potential differences between regions of the sky and the ground. The other theory states that lightning is caused by the hammer of Thor.


What exactly causes lightning when there are electric potential differences between regions in the sky? Is it anybody's fault. Can we sue?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 30 Mar, 2007 08:42 pm
Your power factor is lagging spendi, add some more capacitance.....................that would be because of your inductive reactance.





You won't get the multiple puns without a good understanding of inductance reactance, capacitive reactance and electrical theory, a capacity for which you have never yet demonstrated.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 31 Mar, 2007 08:35 am
I have many capacities which I have not yet demonstrated Chum.

Why don't you answer the question? Why do potential differences between regions in the sky cause a lightning flash.

There are potential differences between regions in our irreducibly complex biological structures.

Why are we not being electrocuted all the time when we get riled up?

There might be an argument here for a designer.
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tkess
 
  1  
Sat 31 Mar, 2007 11:38 am
Simply because we do not understand something doesn't mean it was intelligently designed, spendi. It just means we don't understand something.

It takes a certain level of voltage density to ionize air - this is a byproduct of inducing enough current in the air to superheat it into plasma, and the fact that it's ionized is what gives it that characteristic white appearance. If you want to get technical about it, there are small "lightning bolts" going off fairly regularly in the human body - little microcurrents carried by dielectrics like water. But there the potential difference, and the region over which it acts, is fairly small, so the water doesn't necessarily ionize automatically.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 31 Mar, 2007 03:31 pm
tkess wrote-

Quote:
Simply because we do not understand something doesn't mean it was intelligently designed, spendi. It just means we don't understand something.


I never said there was/is/always will be an intelligent Designer. I merely point out that it is a possibility and this provides opportunities for those humans who try to imitate a supposed design to run things and that those who have a track record of running things best (Us) are in some way correctly interpreting the design.

And Darwinists don't interpret the design properly because they leave out emotions and self-consciousness and treat with humans as if they were animals. Which is plainly ridiculous.

All you have done with the other is describe it. You have said nothing of the "how" of any of it. It was tasty though.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 31 Mar, 2007 06:23 pm
spendi
Quote:
And Darwinists don't interpret the design properly because they leave out emotions and self-consciousness and treat with humans as if they were animals.
.. AS Darwin sorta said, and I paraphrase of course.
"If there were a designer , he could, no doubt get it right the first time, so why didnt she?"


As far as humans not being animals as you assert, what would your chosen Linnean (or Biocladistic) classification include us within spendi?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 1 Apr, 2007 09:10 am
Homo sapiens I think we are known as. Homo Erectus (I'll say). The cleverest, most cunning, most resourceful organism that could not have been predicted starting from where they were before we arrived out of the blue so to speak even if they knew Darwinian Mechanics.

A unique being the like of which will never be seen again, hopefully, once it has been extirpated. And we are on the last tick of the clock to midnight Central Universal Time.

How long do you think the highest animal will require before it can take the piss out of itself like that? In ideal conditions.

Could it be that our ability to take the piss out of ourselves, as all the best authors do, has been evolved out of the a vast pool of living matter none of which shows the slightest sign of having such a capacity, in fact quite the opposite, or do you think that is an irreducible complexity?

Could it be that human domination is due to those who can take the piss out of themselves. Those cave paintings are pretty funny in places. And the Venuses. We prettied them up. Got the show on the road.

You should bow down in gratitude at the memory of it. Hot and cold running water, buttock powder, the **** shifted and being begged and pleaded at to purchase all the temptations that such success has to offer with tokens provided by the government in return for a few hours in the amusement arcade known as the workplace.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 1 Apr, 2007 11:09 am
Well, if thats all thats bothering you , why not take something for it on this fine April 1.
Quote:
ou should bow down in gratitude at the memory of it. Hot and cold running water, buttock powder, the **** shifted and being begged and pleaded at to purchase all the temptations that such success has to offer with tokens provided by the government in return for a few hours in the amusement arcade known as the workplace.


This paragraph is, of course , just some of your delusions writing. Its gotta be 5 oclock over there, why not get shitfaced tonite at your local (before its torn down and youre out in the street )
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 1 Apr, 2007 01:03 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
This paragraph is, of course , just some of your delusions writing.


Not at all fm. It is you who is deluded. I read history in a different way than you do. By the side of most of it, maybe all of it, this is a paradise and it has been created by the Christian religion which, though not being perfect, deserves to be judged on results.

Are you trying to claim that my brief caricature was incorrect or flawed in some way?

Maybe you are so used to gnashing your teeth that you can't imagine everybody else not doing.

Science was only ever possible in Christianity and only ever safe with it.
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