97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 05:35 am
the connection is?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 06:06 am
None exists except for those who make one.

Junk exists to further a world of junk.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 08:59 am
The March 16, 2007 issue of Drexel University's student newspaper has an interesting point-counterpoint debate on intelligent design. (The first student's essay criticizes ID and the second student's essay supports ID.)

Quote:
Flawed by design
By: Edward DiNola

As stated quite succinctly by physicist Steven Hawking, "A theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations." As many opponents of intelligent design have stated, ID fails not only to provide any future predictions, but also to provide proper explanation of many observations of the world today. By narrowing time scales down to that which is observable over the course of a human lifetime, ID creates a myopic view of our world, and creates the need for an intelligent designer to explain the myriad variations of the world around us.

As William Mulgrew has shown in his article ("Judge Jones' god of the gaps fallacy," March 2), it is very simple to destroy a scientific theory by finding a single incident that completely violates it. If I were to, for example, drop a pen from my hand, one would expect it to fall toward the most massive nearby body, which is, in our primary experiences, Earth. However, even though this has held true for trillions upon trillions of events, if the pen happens to fall upwards, just one time, then the entire theory is moot.

Darwin's theory of evolution has been refined over the years quite heavily, and has not yet been met with a significant force of opposition. ID cannot stand as its equal because it fails to accomplish the same descriptive power as evolutionary theory. If ID is, in fact, a realistic description of the world around us, then we must reconsider not only evolutionary theory, but many of the other sciences as well. If, as tectonics posits, the continents themselves have been moving for millions of years, and the global climate changing over this time span, how is it that we have variation around the world? How do we explain a creature like a penguin, highly adapted for the cold conditions, when Antarctica itself was once warm?

If an intelligent designer did sculpt Earth's life forms, what else did this designer create? Was this designer responsible for the underlying physical laws of the universe and for the chemical laws that rise from these? Was it the designer who thought out the plans for fusion to unleash energy to allow its creations to be motile? And, of course, the now-cliché question: Who designed the designer? At what point can we allow natural processes to explain creation?

I am particularly disturbed that Mulgrew would state Darwinism's predictions are not observable. If Darwinism in its current form were correct by any means, then large-scale observable results satisfying these predictions would take incredulously long periods of time. These times would be mere instants, however, compared to the changes of another science - astrophysics. If Mulgrew claims that the theories of Darwinism, with hundreds of millions of years as its time steps, are questionable solely because of its snapshot nature, then he also suggests that theories on stellar evolution and galactic formation, with time steps of billions of years, are inaccurate. If these systems are inaccurate, then we must question many other scientific theories that also rely on mathematical predictions to make up for the constraints of the human lifespan.

Mulgrew's statements concerning the Big Bang were also misguided. Scientists do not begin to equate the actual Big Bang event, i.e., "time zero," to the beginning of our universe. Rather, before that point, the current physical models are useless and break down. Rather than create a false proof, they simply stated it could not yet be described. Mathematicians have tried to explain the event through other theories, but they know that these will not be able to be tested for quite some time, likely long beyond their life spans, and so the ideas posited by m-theory and quantum gravity are not disseminated as common knowledge.

Finally, I would like to comment upon Mulgrew's reaffirmation of the truth of irreducible complexity. There is absolutely no system that cannot be sufficiently explained through chaos theory; i.e., that even from very simple starting conditions, an incredibly complex system may result n time steps later. While it is possible to trace a process back to one approximation of its starting process, one time step at a time, it is not possible to predict the end result from the beginning, only the next step in the procedure. While I do accept that scientific discussion is necessary for the progress of understanding, it is important to realize that most scientific discoveries are not "Eureka!" but "Hmm, that's interesting." Entire new theories do not rise up out of nowhere; even Einstein's groundbreaking theory of relativity is heavily rooted in Newton and Maxwell.


Quote:
Distressful truths
By: William Mulgrew

Origin of life is a science with profound religious implications. Was life designed or did it occur by chance? Many scientists are convinced it's the latter, but when evidence points to the former, they become uncomfortable to the point that they'll suppress it. A common tactic is insisting intelligent design isn't "science."

Specifically, they point to Stephan Hawking's definition that a theory must contain "few arbitrary elements" and "make definite predictions" about future observations. But this is an ideological slight of hand. By "science" they mean empirical science, when the Big Bang and intelligent design are forensic.

Observations with "few arbitrary elements" are regularities, how we make sense of things commonly seen. Definite predictions about future observations mean they can be recreated and repeated. Hawking's definition of a theory falls under empirical science, not forensic.

Forensics observes singularities in the past that more often than not cannot be repeated or recreated. The Big Bang is a singularity, not a regularity, and is not repeatable. Forensic science investigates origin. Empirical science, or natural processes, investigates operation. The two shouldn't be confused and empirical processes cannot be imposed on forensics. It's hypocritical to keep the Big Bang, but deny ID on this charge.

Demanding an explanation for the myriad variations in the world around us is meta-physical, not scientific. It requires speculation on the identity of the intelligent designer and the design objectives. Science cannot produce an answer for that, nor should it have to. Perhaps there's similarity in design because the designer intended life around us to exist in the same biosphere and establish a food chain. If you ask a religious question, expect a religious answer.

When scientists attempt to sidestep the theological implications of the Big Bang and claim that it wasn't the beginning of the universe, they walk on very shaky grounds. When Stephen Hawking formulated his imaginary time theory, we might as well call it imaginary theory.

Any theory that speculates on what happened when there was nothing makes it no longer "nothing," but "something." Hawking has retreated from this position and conceded, "In real time, the universe has a beginning," in his own book, A Brief History of Time, and "Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang." Aristotle once said nothing is what rocks dream about. You cannot posit theories on nothing; they're unproved materialistic conjectures.

Furthermore, DNA does not indicate causative agency. Whether naturalistically or intelligently assembled, DNA is still DNA and doesn't prove it one way or the other. That humans share 90 percent of our DNA with apes can imply the intent of the designer just as much as a common ancestor.

Citing penguins or Darwin's finches betrays evolutionary fallacy. Darwin's definition of "descent with modification through variation and natural selection" excludes the site and agency of modifications - the where and how. It conveniently excludes the evolution of the first cell (which has not been proved), and doesn't account for what caused the modifications.

That finches with larger beaks survived during droughts than finches with smaller beaks only shows the alteration of existing DNA - the surviving large-beak finches mated and increased the population, but during rainy seasons, small-beaked finches saw a return and effectively competed with large-beak finches for food. At the end of the day, they are still finches, not new or different types.

Alteration of existing DNA, which happens in reproduction, should not be confused as proof of evolution between types. It disturbs me that some make this claim, when the evolution between types has never been observed. The short lifespan of fruit flies would enable scientists to study millions of generations over a period of decades. They have still not provided any evidence of the evolution between types, even when allowance is made for long periods of time.

If one's pen fell upwards only once, we would call that a singularity, not a regularity. If it was repeatable, but not observable in any other object near you without any other forces present, we would rightly call that a miracle. Just because a space shuttle overpowers the Earth's gravity doesn't refute the theory of gravity - it's merely a singularity involving intelligent agency. Empirical naturalism describes how life functions usually, not exclusively, and excludes intelligent agency.

How can Darwinists dismiss irreducible complexity while providing no explanation on the possibility of naturalistically assembling protein? You need protein (ribosomes) to do it! You cannot form protein when you need it in the process. Not a single scientific article or journal on molecular evolution exists, and DNA is where evolution takes place. If chaos theory cannot create the first cell, then it cannot create transitional life.

If it takes time for new theories to rise up, then why exclude ID on the basis that it has not been accepted by a majority of the scientific community? Why not allow scientists to investigate both in the field of forensics and let the evidence lead them where it may?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 01:38 pm
In the above Drexel University debate, the student supporting ID claims:
"Not a single scientific article or journal on molecular evolution exists, and DNA is where evolution takes place."

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol24/issue3/cover.gif

I can not figure why he would claim that. There have been many scientific essays and even books written on molecular evolution.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 02:39 pm
The fact that there have been many scientific essays and even books written on molecular evolution is not really proof of anything wande. People like writing books and essays using long chains of strange words and expressions which I suppose must be a function of their author's DNA.
What the difference is between that DNA and that of those who don't write such books and essays is still a mystery I gather but if it turns out to be an unusually placed nitrogen atom it looks a little silly to then grant them status and power on such a basis as no possible credit can be awarded over and above that awarded for going fishing due to a silicon atom being there instead as a result of being conceived on the beach rather than in a lush meadow.

As I understand it the formation of DNA from the material of the consenting parties is a somewhat more complex process than has hitherto been suggested. It is more than likely I should think that it is another of the many, maybe infinite, irreducibly complex processes of nature.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 03:44 pm
spendi again
Quote:
It is more than likely I should think that it is another of the many, maybe infinite, irreducibly complex processes of nature.
Because YOU dont understand the structure doesnt really matter to DNA. If, your pronouncement is that the biochem of DNA is Mooga Booga, then ID suggest that you too should also read before you critique,
Youre like a movie critic who never leaves home.



Wande, I was rather impressed at the clear argument of the first student, apparently, the ignorance of the second student will assure him a position in some bible belt company.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 03:46 pm
you keep providing relavent articles and well keep comin like flies to a cowpie.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 03:49 pm
Thanks spendi and farmerman!

Farmerman: The second student seems to suggest that protein is irreducibly complex. Is there any truth to that?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 04:10 pm
Jesus Jimmy H Christ you know bettern that. We can trace the makeups of every chemical bond in a codon in DNA from its amino acid precursors through ite pre amino acid nucleotide.
We can see the amino acids and their nucleotides in Galaxies spectra far far away. The kid is on some kind of stupid pill.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 04:13 pm
what pisses me off is that some of my past students teach at Drexel. Im gonna make some particular raft of **** at an upcoming meeting or two. These arent high school kids anymore and Drexel is an elite engineering school. Or is it?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 04:19 pm
wande wrote-

Quote:
The second student seems to suggest that protein is irreducibly complex. Is there any truth to that?


It's highly likely wande. 99.99rec about.

What use would it be to science if it isn't. As things seem to stand, assuming the irreducible complexity, they are in business for ever and ever or at least until their self regard, so blatantly displayed in fm's last but one post, causes them to disappear up their own nipsies.

Once the complexity is reduced that's it. Over to the technologists, the facilitators and the poor bloody working man whose rights have been so sadly traduced, nay, ground into the -well--ground these few years last.

What would they do if that happened. Everybody would know about it then and you can't justify these immense (ahem!) salaries with common knowledge. Apart from the Philosophy Department at Cambridge University I mean. They are a special case.

So even if the proteins were reduced to common knowledge the scientists would invent irreducible complexity to keep the cash flow up to the level to which they, and the dear ladies of course, we musn't forget them, have become accustomed.

If they didn't one can imagine a bunch of pensioned off grumpy old scientists sat gnashing their teeth in a pub reminiscing about the good old days of irreducible complexity.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 04:27 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Drexel is an elite engineering school. Or is it?


What's the problem fm. Half, maybe more, of the Ferrari team engineers go to church regularly. I don't see how a religious belief can affect an engineering expertise. I would be inclined to think it would advance it but that's an opinion I know. I would lean that way from the scant evidence I have seen.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 05:40 pm
wandeljw wrote:
In the above Drexel University debate, the student supporting ID claims:
"Not a single scientific article or journal on molecular evolution exists, and DNA is where evolution takes place."

I can not figure why he would claim that. There have been many scientific essays and even books written on molecular evolution.


He's bluffing because he doesn't have a hand. It's all he CAN do.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 05:49 pm
ASSSERTION!!!
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 05:55 pm
wandeljw wrote:
The second student seems to suggest that protein is irreducibly complex. Is there any truth to that?


You didn't really ask that question did you? Wink

If anything was irreducibly complex, then we would have to trash the entire theory of evolution by means of natural selection.

Any skeptic of evolution could point to any one of billions of organic compounds and pronounce them irreducibly complex, and challenge science to prove that they're not.

Or, we can simply observe that evolution proves that all organic compounds are reducible, and challenge the skeptics to find one that isn't (and prove it).

We will never find an irreducible [anything] for the same reason we won't find horse fossils in the same geologic layer with trilobites.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 06:10 pm
BLUSTER and BOMBAST!!!!

With the needle gouging the green velvet on which the record is being made to revolve by the night shift of the electricty generating plant.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 07:58 pm
rosborne and farmerman,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion on what the second student was saying. I was fooled by the "red herring" (as timber would say).
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 09:12 pm
wandeljw wrote:
rosborne and farmerman,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion on what the second student was saying. I was fooled by the "red herring" (as timber would say).


I don't remember Timber saying 'red herring' all that often. But I will forever remember him showering RL with 'strawman' Smile He must have had the word strawman fused into his paste key when replying to RL.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Mon 19 Mar, 2007 09:58 pm
ID = IA


Intelligent Design = Irreducible Absurdity
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 20 Mar, 2007 05:40 am
spendi
Quote:
What use would it be to science if it isn't. As things seem to stand, assuming the irreducible complexity, they are in business for ever and ever or at least until their self regard, so blatantly displayed in fm's last but one post, causes them to disappear up their own nipsies.
Quote:
BLUSTER and BOMBAST!!!!
Quote:
ASSSERTION!!!


A word comes to mind describing spendis shallow views but good manners prevents me from using it . I think we should make an effort to expand his world a bit.(Like thatll happen)
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 01/07/2025 at 11:39:06