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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 7 Mar, 2007 08:08 pm
Quote:
"The illegitimacy rate represents the triumph of the hormones over the propriteries." Is that Darwinian enough for you? Or are you a social climber?
Going further,
" the good fortune of mankind is the propensity for the upper classes to eventually cease reproduction"
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 09:54 am
Quote:
Intelligent Design Scientists Will Showcase Evidence Challenging Evolution at Dallas Conference
(Discovery Institute Press Release, March 8, 2007)

What is intelligent design and what scientific evidence supports it? How does it differ from Darwin's theory of evolution? Is there a purpose to the universe? What new scientific facts are turning evolutionary theories upside down?

Answers to these and other intriguing science questions will be the focus of a two-day conference called Darwin vs. Design, coming to Dallas April 13-14 at McFarlin Auditorium on the campus of Southern Methodist University.

Join journalist and New York Times bestselling author Lee Strobel and a panel of scientists at Discovery Institute's Darwin vs. Design Conference as they explore the evidence for Darwin's theory of evolution and explain the emerging scientific theory of intelligent design.

Featured speakers include:
-Lee Strobel, journalist and bestselling author of The Case for a Creator.
-Dr. Stephen Meyer, Director, Center for Science and Culture (CSC) at Discovery Institute, and co-editor of Darwinism, Design, and Public Education.
-Dr. Michael Behe, Lehigh University biochemist and author of the bestselling book Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, and CSC senior fellow.
-Dr. Jay Richards, Research Fellow of the Acton Institute, co-author of The Privileged Planet, and CSC senior fellow.

Attendees will interact with intelligent design scientists and experts whose discoveries in cosmology, biology, physics, and DNA present astonishing scientific evidence that is overturning the evolutionary thinking of the past. Conference goers will hear firsthand the astounding implications these discoveries are having on our society, our politics and our culture.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 10:00 am
And every July 1-3 the Virginia CSA Re-enactors league, stages a successful attack on Gettysburg wherein the Confedearcy decidedly wins and moves on to take Washungton.

I wonder whether the NCSE, AAS, GSA, NABT or the USGS will be invited to the shindig?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 10:06 am
farmerman,

I was hoping that you would attend and then report back to us. Any chance of that?
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 10:16 am
Shindig is the word. Wande only reports on the content of the press handouts.

One assumes lady scientists will be present. It is probably a good thing to train some ladies up to be scientists. Conferences are more fun that way and it provides an opportunity for a male exponent of the scientific method to find a wife who might be able to put up with him. And I can't see it doing much harm.

Knees up Mother Brown
Knees up Mother Brown
Knees up, knees up
Don't get the breeze up
Knees up Mother Brown.

I'll come to the previous question later fm. I'm up to the eyeballs in shite here. Literally.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 12:08 pm
wandel
Quote:
I was hoping that you would attend and then report back to us. Any chance of that?


Slim and None. I know M Behe and would be recognized by some in the audience , would probably be drawn into a gunfight at some time and they would bury me on boot hill. Id have to be a very "flexible Christian" in that group.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 12:08 pm
wandel
Quote:
I was hoping that you would attend and then report back to us. Any chance of that?


why not send spendi. Hed have em all going around in circles,and theyd all be buying him beers (course theyd be American Beers)
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 04:31 pm
That would be nice but my rut is too comfortable for me to leave it for a few American beers when I can just as easily get some English stuff with a few minutes of strolling through the late evening air. My journeyings are through the labyrinth of knowledge in that small corner where the negativities have not reached.

I tried to draft an answer to your previous enquiry regarding lady scientists but it ran somewhat out of control I'm afraid. I'll see if I can distill it down soon. I'm not avoiding it. It is a vast subject.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:49 pm
Well, lady scientists are much on your mind spendi Very Happy maybe your comments will be vast but Im sure you can trim them at least by half.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 9 Mar, 2007 03:00 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Well, lady scientists are much on your mind spendi maybe your comments will be vast but Im sure you can trim them at least by half.


It is an interesting question and it has exercised much greater minds than I am able to bring to bear uopn it.

In answering it I must excercise a little circumspection because, as you no doubt know, there are those who are quick, possibly over-quick, to take offence at what they perceive to be derogatory remarks concerning the fair sex.

Needless to say that no offence is intended and that it often is is often a function of a need to take offence rather than any fault in that which offence is taken at.

I have the utmost admiration for ladies which expands, often alarmingly, in direct proportion to their ladiness and consider them to be quaisi-mystical beings and somewhat higher than that on some occasions.

How they manage to transmute the fodder they eat into those little darlings in the cradle astounds me. But, of course, that is a biological miracle the envy of which is often said to motivate male creativity which, despite our pitiful efforts, cannot hope to be its equal. How the aforesaid little darlings subsequently are transmuted into monsters is easier to explain as they have some intellectual control over that.

Generally speaking, I take the view that when a writer imparts wisdom my way 1,000 times I take it more or less for granted that his next quantum of wisdom will be worthwhile and this is particularly so when it is confirmed by the evidence I see.

One man who I regard in this manner is Sam Johnson and he wrote this-

Quote:
In former times, the pen, like the sword, was considered as consigned by nature to the hands of men; the ladies contented themselves with private virtues and domestic excellence, and a female writer, like a female warrior, was considered as a kind of excentric (sic) being, that deviated, however illustriously, from her due sphere of motion, and was, therefore, rather to be gazed at with wonder, than countenanced by imitation. But as the times past are said to have been a nation of Amazons, who drew the bow and wielded the battle-axe, formed encampments, and wasted nations; the revolution of years has now produced a generation of Amazons of the pen, who with the spirit of their predecessors have set masculine tyranny at defiance, asserted their claim to the regions of sciences, and seem resolved to contest the usurpations of virility.


There are many other writers who have imparted much wisdom in my direction and I can't imagine any one of them disputing Mr Johnson's remarks. Some of them, indeed, will have used his remarks as starting points in their own works.

The tone of the passage can be seen throughout Mr Johnson's wide ranging interpretations of his observational field.

I readily recognise the duty to say that my views are conditioned by the authors I choose to peruse and that any ladies who do take offence at their conclusions have an equal duty to recognise that their views have been conditioned by what they have chosen to read.

When ladies enter the scientific field (not the technological one) they are in my humble opinion not on firm feminine ground and are prone to lose that compound of charm and cunning with which they were endowed by we know not what, and so we might as well put it down to God, for the very purpose of combatting our superior force and energy.

What amuses me is that these gentle acolytes of truth and empirical severities turn up at their places of work, study and leisure after having taken considerable pains to hide the truth and its empirical severities or at the very least to have rendered it congenial to their vanity. From top to toe and from stem to stern they commonly use every artifice available to them, or risk subjecting their dignity to, in the service of their objectives. A multi-billion dollar industry caters to this feminine need and it is so inescapable of notice that I feel a certain reluctance at drawing attention to it.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 05:23 am
Hey spendi, you are wanted here as it involves chivalry, and knights in shinning armor, and ladies in waiting, all with a slant on the superior morals of yore!
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 08:35 am
Ladies-in-waiting Chum are generally drawn from those members of the vulgar classes who in return for a more comfortable lifestyle than they have the capacity to get otherwise are prepared to sacrifice certain degrees of their dignity.

The Lady herself is more my leg of mutton along with the fresh cream of the milkmaids and the frothing pots of the public house scullions. Those in between have a certain propensity to affectation which I find rather unscientific and thus disagreeable.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 10:40 am
I am so glad we threw these Brit bums out in the Revolution and the War of 1812
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 12:01 pm
I would imagine we allowed ourselves to be ejected so that there would be no sulking. We all know how important it is to be THE WINNER.

There was a review in a recent Sunday times by Mr Appleyard of THE TROUBLE WITH PHYSICS: The Rise of String Theory, The Fall of Science and What Comes Next by one Lee Smolin which Mr Appleyard says is "the best book about contemporary science written for that layman" that he has ever read. And he has read a few.

It contained this paragraph-

Quote:
With a cry of joy, most of these scientists seized on string theory as the answer. But their enthusiasm was such that they came to think not that it might be the answer but that it must be. They formed themselves into a cult. Dissenters and apostates were not just scorned, they were denied posts in universities. Einstein the thinker could not now get a job in any leading physics department. For any young physicist, it was easiest simply to suppress one's doubts and go with the stringies.


If they were "enthusiastic" they might do well to remember that enthusiam insists that reason is exiled.

He goes on

Quote:
As a result, now that it is increasingly clear that string theory has failed, an abyss has opened up at the feet of the stringies.


Isn't the denial of a place in higher education to those who dissent from the establishment viewpoint what the recent case wande mentioned all about?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 01:15 pm
Quote:
Thou art not noble:
For all th' accomodations, that thou bear'st,
Are nurs'd by baseness.


Measure For Measure 3. 1. 14

Predating Darwin by about 350 years. Thus-was Shakespeare an atheist?

Although he could have been referring to fornication or to the idea that all the displays of grandeur and luxury derive from digging in the earth and that a status divide exists between those who display and those who dig as Veblen maintains.

One might proceed to the notion that only predation has true human dignity which is a Darwinian fundamental. That only might is right.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 02:53 pm
Tring Theory has always been called "mathturbation" by a number of physicists. Ive never taken the time to keep abreast beyond SCience and NAture articles.
I predict that the "global warming as an anthropogenic product " bubble will also burst in the next30 years or so.

PS, Ive met Lee Smolin at Waterloo and found him an excellent conveyor of thoughts. Its funny that you'd quote comments about his book because Smolin is as critical about the"priesthood of Physicists" who default to a world of "intelligent Design" when noone can get the punchlines or significance of string theory. Hes been a harsh critic of all these "theories" and "multiverses" that cannot be evidenced in some means. Hes also been a student of the interdisciplinary approaches to cosmology and evolution. He calls it "biofriendliness" Neat Guy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 06:28 pm
We do realise fm that-

Quote:
Neat Guy.


implies that you know what Mr Smolin is talking about and that it helps you to hitch your wagon to a star, maybe a rising star, and be thereby mutated into a being superior to those who don't know what he's talking about.

Tangled ropes are bad enough but string is impossible.

Could you explain exactly why Mr Smolin is "neat". Is it because he got a book published and is famous?

This is a science forum after all.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 11 Mar, 2007 05:19 am
Whenever I talk with you spendi , I am torn between two mental pictures I have of you.
1youre a smart man who, although retaining some Midieval views, is always good for some sort of opinion (no matter how convoluted)

or

2 Youre a toxic little boy who's need for adulation must almost always be at the expense of others.

After youre last remark, Im going with 2.

Now, if youre true to form, youll come back some half witted diatribe about science and we wont get back to topic until Wandel comes in and posts something relevant from a publication.

Ive grown a bit tired of your immature self-flattery combined with your churlishness. Ill probably begin what others have already done, Ill merely ignore you. That way its hard for you to get traction in continuing your ill mannered behavior.
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xingu
 
  1  
Sun 11 Mar, 2007 07:18 am
farmerman wrote:
Ive grown a bit tired of your immature self-flattery combined with your churlishness. Ill probably begin what others have already done, Ill merely ignore you. That way its hard for you to get traction in continuing your ill mannered behavior.


farmerman has seen the light.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 11 Mar, 2007 09:32 am
Biological Emergence Theory has been mentioned recently as a successor to ID. This theory is explained in the following excerpt from an essay by Kristine Larson, a physics professor at Connecticut State University:

Quote:
Post-newtonian science has generally been reductionist in nature - namely, an understanding a system can be reduced to understanding the operation and interaction of its parts. This approach met with widespread success, and led to the acceptance of physicalism, "the belief that all science ultimately reduces to the laws of physics". However, by the twentieth century, it was discovered that some systems cannot simply be reduced to the sum of their parts, but rather have self-organization or emergent properties. These unique properties are different from the properties of the constituents at a more fundamental level. Examples range from something as basic as the hydrogen atom (more than merely a proton and an electron) to the human brain and the universe itself.

Over the decades of the twentieth century, scientists in an increasing number of disciplines (ranging from biology to computer science) as well as philosophers have applied emergence theory to systems of interest. As early as 1926, philosopher Stephen Pepper set out three basic tenets of emergence theory:

"1) that there are levels of existence defined in terms of degrees of integration;

2) that there are marks which distinguish these levels from one another and above the degrees of integration;

3) that it is impossible to deduce the marks of a higher level from those of a lower level, and perhaps also (though this is not clear) impossible to deduce marks of a lower level from those of a higher."

It comes as no surprise that some in the creationist/ID community have jumped on emergence theory as "proof" of a Creator. For example, John Templeton and Robert Herrman claim that: "There are deep and powerful ordering forces in the universe. This is especially observed in recent developments in the study of what are called far-from-equilibrium processes, in which it is seen that there are spontaneous transitions within apparently random processes to higher levels of order."

Although it is true that such "chaotic" systems do show emergent properties of order, there is no scientific evidence that this derives from a supernatural driver. Others have claimed that emergence is a philosophical concept rather than a testable, scientific theory. In response, philosopher of science Philip Clayton has proposed the following tenets:

"1) Emergence studies will be scientific only if emergence can be explicated in terms that the relevant sciences can study, check, and incorporate into actual theories.

2) Explanations concerning such phenomena must thus be given in terms of the structures and functions of stuff in the world."

As the universe itself is the greatest "emergent" structure of all, it is not surprising that physicists have used the term to describe various theories of the very early universe. For example, time, space-time, and Einsteinian gravity have all been described as "emergent properties" of the universe [Barceló, Visser, and Liberati 2001; Butterfield and Isham 1998; Clayton 2004]. Various models of the emergence of the universe itself have been proposed, mainly within the framework of the inflationary paradigm [Linde 1987]. The universe is generally pictured as being "spontaneously created from nothing," either through quantum tunneling (nucleation) [Vilenkin 1983 and 1987] or through the "no-boundary" proposal [Hartle and Hawking 1983]. For this reason, inflationary models are frequently called "the ultimate free lunch" [Guth 1997, 1]. Such glib comments have opened up inflationary cosmologies to sharp criticism from the ID community. For example, in his book No Free Lunch (2002), William Dembski called it a "form of magic" and explained its appeal as "the offer of a bargain - indeed an incredible bargain for which no amount of creative accounting can ever square the books. The idea of getting something for nothing has come to pervade science" [368]. After ridiculing cosmology for appealing to this "magic," Dembski offers the salvation of design theory, which "substitutes a designer who explains everything. Magic gets you something for nothing and thus offers a bargain. Design gets you something by presupposing something unimaginably bigger and thus asks you to sell your scientific soul. At least so the story goes. But design can be explanatory without giving away the store."

Despite Dembski's inflammatory language and glossing over of scientific theory, it is understandable how a popular level audience might be swayed by his "logic." The sometimes amusing language that scientists use to converse within their own community can come back to haunt them when it comes to communication with the general public. For example, the term "quarks" sounds nonsensical enough when taken in isolation, but when these unobservable particles are said to come in "flavors" named up, down, strange, charm, top and bottom (originally truth and beauty), the door is certainly opened for raised eyebrows (if not red flags) from opponents of scientific theories. In the 1980s and 1990s various research groups searching for observational evidence of macroscopic baryonic dark matter candidates (such as brown dwarfs) via microlensing made a veritable game of naming their projects in such a way as to obtain sexually suggestive acronyms, such as MACHO, AGAPE, EROS, DUO, and OGLE. While this can lead to moments of humor in otherwise dry conference presentations, it does nothing to further the reputation of science outside of its own community, and can furthermore play into the hands of its harshest critics.
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