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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 05:56 am
Thanks timber for both the info and the entertainment. Your creativity improves no end when you know what you're talking about.

Why do we have deer then? Are they anything other than status symbols? Are all these innocent (?) people being infected just so a handful of silly sods can pose as medieval land owners and primitive hunting bands?

If 12,000 Wisconsin residents have Lyme surely getting rid of deer is the obvious solution. We just exterminated nearly 200,000 turkeys and they hadn't passed their disease to one single human being or to any other turkeys outside of the infected shed containing just 16,000. To a scientific materialist one critter is equal to any other critter. Have deer got a spiritual dimension attached to them? Some sort of mysterious, metaphysical cachet such as religious icons and vestments in the eyes of a miniscule section of the population which translates into 12,000 sick people requiring expensive treatment and being rendered economically useless in just one state.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 07:05 am
spendi
Quote:
If 12,000 Wisconsin residents have Lyme surely getting rid of deer is the obvious solution. We just exterminated nearly 200,000 turkeys and they hadn't passed their disease to one single human being or to any other turkeys outside of the infected shed containing just 16,000. To a scientific materialist one critter is equal to any other critter. Have deer got a spiritual dimension attached to them? Some sort of mysterious, metaphysical cachet such as religious icons and vestments in the eyes of a miniscule section of the population which translates into 12,000 sick people requiring expensive treatment and being rendered economically useless in just one state. [/QUOTE Each day, when Im afforded the opportunity to stare into the black hole which is the mind of spendi, I gape in wonder at how he finds the little strings that tie his points together. Ill bet hes got a huuuge Mr Bong.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 08:14 am
I find that ridiculous fm. The point I made was atop a small pedestal with bright lights of clarity shining upon it.

How you can compare it to a black hole beats me. It is surely what everybody might think one they thought about it at all.

What you should do, as an intellectual, is justify the presence of deer and show that the 12000 sick people and the expense and dislocation of Lyme are a price worth paying. You should eschew the smear on the grounds that it's kid's stuff.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 02:58 pm
Let's have a bit of class American writing eh?-

Quote:
With the exception of the instinct of self-preservation, the propensity for emulation is probably the strongest and most alert and persistant of the economic motives proper. In an industrial community this propensity for emulation expresses itself in pecuniary emulation; and this, so far as regards the Western civilized communities of the present (1899), is virtually equivalent to saying that it expresses itself in some form of conspicuous waste. The need of conspicuous waste, therefore, stands ready to absorb any increase in the community's industrial efficiency or output of goods, after the most elementary physical wants have been provided for. Where this result does not follow, under modern conditions, the reason for the discrepancy is commonly to be sought in a rate of increase in the individual's wealth too rapid for the habit of expenditure to keep abreast of it; or it may be that the individual in question defers the conspicuous consumption of the increment to a later date--ordinarily with a view to heightening the spectacular effect of the aggregate expenditure contemplated. As increased industrial efficiency makes it possible to procure the means of livelihood with less labour, the energies of the industrious members of the community are bent to the compassing of a higher result in conspicuous expenditure, rather than slackened to a more comfortable pace. The strain is not lightened as industrial efficiency increases and makes a lighter strain possible, but the increment of output is turned to use to meet this want, which is indefinitely expansible, after the manner commonly imputed in economic theory to higher or spiritual wants. It is owing chiefly to the presence of this element in the standard of living that J.S. Mill was able to say that "hitherto it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being.


Now there's a flat out materialist.

"Spiritual wants" eh? Maybe this debate is simply between two forms of spirituality. On the one hand the religious tolerance of weekends off and holy days and festivals with their accompanying piss-ups and on the other hand the 7 day, nose to the grindstone, effect of materialism as suggested by two peer-reviewed scientists in the field of economics.

It is even a possibilty that the study of fossils is a form of conspicuous waste in itself. I think a materialist might think so unless some use can be got from it which caters to elementary physical wants.

And I don't think that proving we are monkeys is one of those unless, of course, laughing is an elementary physical want as Rabelais said it was.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 03:32 pm
the mind of spendius
Quote:
What you should do, as an intellectual, is justify the presence of deer and show that the 12000 sick people and the expense and dislocation of Lyme are a price worth paying. You should eschew the smear on the grounds that it's kid's stuff.


ESCHEW OBFUSCATION!!
Im not an intellectual, I work for a living.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 04:16 pm
Well- I didn't like saying wannabee fm.

I also work for a living although a lot less harder than I used to.

Intellectuals decide education policy don't they. I should jolly well hope so.

Perhaps Spengler's prediction that we have exhausted our possibilities would come true if that were not to be the case and thus what he called the "second religiousness" would be called forth. To renew us.

Are you one of the anti-intellectualists Hofstadter wrote about?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 05:49 pm
Try to remain with one subject at a time shpendi. Its difficult jumping in and out of subjects just because you get some bug up your ass.

Now make a point or go to bed.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 Feb, 2007 06:05 pm
What a good idea. I have been up since 10.30 am.

Did you not like the Veblen quote fm? It's the style I like. The fluency of expression.

It struck me, when I first read it many years ago, that pecuniary emulation and its upshot, conspicuos consumption, is in the service of the self-preservation of the ego and thus may, in certain circumstances, over-ride the organism's self-preservation instinct.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 09:38 am
Quote:
U.S. has more science smarts, for the most part
(By Randolph E. Schmid, The Associated Press, February 19, 2007)

People in the U.S. know more about basic science today than they did two decades ago, good news that researchers say is tempered by an unsettling growth in the belief in pseudoscience such as astrology and visits by extraterrestrial aliens.

In 1988 only about 10% knew enough about science to understand reports in major newspapers, a figure that grew to 28% by 2005, according to Jon D. Miller, a Michigan State University professor. He presented his findings Saturday at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

The improvement largely reflects the requirement that all college students have at least some science courses, Miller said. This way, they can better keep up with new developments through the media.

A panel of researchers expressed concern that people are giving increasing credence to pseudoscience such as the visits of space aliens, lucky numbers and horoscopes.

In addition, these researchers noted an increase in college students who report they are "unsure" about creationism as compared with evolution.

More recent generations know more factual material about science, said Carol Susan Losh, an associate professor at Florida State University. But, she said, when it comes to pseudoscience, "the news is not good."

One problem, she said, is that pseudoscience can speak to the meaning of life in ways that science does not.

For example, for many women having a good life still depends on whom they marry, she said.

"What does astrology speak to? Love relationships," Losh said, noting that belief in horoscopes is much higher among women than men.

The disclosure that former first lady Nancy Reagan consulted an astrologer resulted in widespread derision in the media, but few younger people remember that episode today, she said.

Miller said most readers of horoscopes are women, contributing to the listing of "female" as a leading negative factor in science literacy. Women also tended to take fewer college science courses, he said.

Belief in abduction by space aliens is also on the rise, Losh said.

"It's not surprising that the generation that grew up on Twilight Zone and early Star Trek television endorsed a link between UFOs and alien spacecraft," she said.

Pseudoscience discussion is often absent from the classroom, Losh said, so "we have basically left it up to the media."

Raymond Eve of the University of Texas at Arlington had mixed news in surveys of students at an unnamed Midwestern university.

The share that believed aliens had visited Earth fell from 25% in 1983 to 15% in 2006. There was also a decline in belief in "Bigfoot" and in whether psychics can predict the future.

But there also has been a drop in the number of people who believe evolution correctly explains the development of life on Earth and an increase in those who believe mankind was created about 10,000 years ago.

Miller said a second major negative factor to scientific literacy was religious fundamentalism and aging.

Having taken college science courses was a strong positive influence, followed by overall education and informal science learning through the media. Having children at home also resulted in adults being more scientifically informed, he said.

Nick Allum of the University of Surry in England suggested belief in astrology might be a simple misunderstanding of the question, with people confusing astrology with astronomy.

In one European study about 25% of people said they thought astrology was very scientific. But when the question was rephrased to horoscopes that fell to about 7%.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 10:10 am
More bad news for ID-iots:

Meet the ancestor

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40541000/jpg/_40541771_pieroskull_sci_203.jpg
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 10:16 am
well that settles it. Humans evolved from West Virginia ancestors. Arctipithecus monodentalis.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 10:22 am
Laughing
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 10:28 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
an increase in those who believe mankind was created about 10,000 years ago.


If "mankind" is defined as that species which has fully aware self-consciousness and a developed sense of expressing it in ornament, art agricultural techniques, building and language then that is not far out. 10,000 years is just another way of saying "recent". Any other definition and we are really monkeys and evolution teaches that our mental and physical health depends upon us behaving like monkeys. Otherwise we are continually at war with our evolved structures. That was what Freud meant, I presume, by saying that civilisation demands sickness. And might explain why we enjoy getting pissed.

Evolutionists have no mechanism to describe this coming to self-consciousness or how organic life appeared from inorganic life and the "Big Bang" is a rather facile description of the beginning of the universe.

I read in the Sunday Times today that the figure for believers in evolution in the US is 10% and not the 20% we have been told on here.

Even the 20% makes evolutionists "contrarian". The 10% makes them look like the awkward squad.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 11:48 am
And what does that say about creationists?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 Feb, 2007 12:03 pm
It is a bit subtle I agree c.i. but if you had paid attention you wouldn't need to be asking such trite questions at this stage.

Are you not aware that there's a health issue here?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 20 Feb, 2007 09:50 am
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Chisum a 'Fixed Earth' advocate? No
(By Bud Kennedy, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, February 20, 2007)

A 78-year-old author in Georgia sells books teaching that the Earth is the center of the galaxy, that modern science is all a Satanic lie and that evolution is a Jewish belief that promotes one-world government.

He wrote some Texans and found a gullible buyer.

Where else?

Of course: the Texas House.

Upholding the usual Capitol standards of intelligence, a Panhandle lawmaker mindlessly circulated ads for a Web site that promotes a book on the "Fixed Earth."

This is not the same as the flat-Earth theory. But it's close.

In a Legislature in which Weatherford lawyer Phil King disputes climate change and Denton County business owner Jane Nelson wants to delay an anti-cancer vaccine, we now have Pampa rancher Warren Chisum distributing anti-evolution handouts scapegoating anyone of the Jewish faith and arguing that the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun.

Chisum is a decent guy and says now that he didn't read the handouts or take them seriously, although he sent every House member a copy Feb. 9.

Author Marshall Hall of Cornelia, Ga., is a retired schoolteacher who has spent the last 30 years protesting the teaching of evolution. His books argue not only that Darwin was wrong but also that science has been wrong ever since Copernicus and that the idea of Earth turning is a "carefully crafted Bible-bashing lie."

Hall wrote a letter on behalf of a Georgia state lawmaker arguing that evolution principles derive from the ancient Jewish kabbalah. In other words, by Hall's argument, evolution is an unconstitutional religious teaching. Creationism, meanwhile, is "science."

State Rep. Ben Bridges of Cleveland, Ga., a Republican and a former driver for retired Sen. Zell Miller, told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that he gave Hall permission to send Chisum the letter and that he agrees with the "Fixed Earth" argument "more than I would the Big Bang theory or the Darwin theory."

I guess he probably also thinks that Texas revolves around Georgia.

Hall's letter directs Texas lawmakers to the commercial Web site www.fixedearth.com, which says, "The whole scheme from Copernicanism to Big Bangism is a factless lie" and including a link on red letters to "this book" (The Earth Is Not Moving). It costs $20, and "PayPal, MC/Visa now available."

By the way, not only does the Web site smear people of the Jewish faith -- he calls Albert Einstein's work "fantasy" and Sigmund Freud's research "nonsense" -- but it also calls Isaac Newton, a Christian, "nonsensical."

It also criticizes Christian televangelist John Hagee of San Antonio and anyone else who preaches support for Israel as the path to eventual Christian rapture in the "end times."

Hagee's church promotes Christians United for Israel and church rallies nationwide called A Night to Honor Israel. Since Gov. Rick Perry and a slate of Republican officeholders went to Hagee's church the Sunday before the last election, I can only assume that some Texas lawmakers are really interested in the end of the world. Meaning they might not be all that worried about smoky power plants or clean water or getting all the poor little girls in Texas vaccinated against cervical cancer. But that's another column.

Even to fellow believers devoted to the biblical description of creation, Hall's book is an embarrassment.

The idea that the solar system spins around Earth is "completely off the wall," said Danny Faulkner, an astronomy and physics professor at the University of South Carolina at Lancaster and a prominent creationist researcher.

He believes that Earth was created in six 24-hour days 6,000 years ago. But he said he wants to "keep a distance" from ideas like Hall's. "It's wrong science, and it's wrong biblically," he said. "Anything like this really hurts the creation movement. We don't have a problem with science. We just reach different conclusions about creation."

The most prominent scholar claiming that the Earth stands still -- scientists call the idea geocentrism -- is Gerardus Buow, a math professor at Baldwin-Wallace College in Ohio.

When I mentioned Hall's name, even he groaned.

"Oh, no -- I thought that was going to be confined to Georgia," he said.

"His conspiratorial views do more damage to the overall cause of creationism than anything else. We have people with graduate degrees who want to know more about the position of the Earth. But we don't think teaching science is a conspiracy."

Buow said Hill is just a "promoter" who "promotes using sensationalism. As you see."

They always find a chump.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 20 Feb, 2007 10:49 am
ID-iots indeed ... as though any further confirmation mattered. These clowns are hellbent on doing themelves in - more power to 'em.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 20 Feb, 2007 10:51 am
Give us a break wande!!
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 21 Feb, 2007 12:28 pm
RUSSIA UPDATE

Quote:
St. Petersburg court rejects schoolgirl's suit over Darwinism
(Russia News and Information Agency, February 21, 2007)

A St. Petersburg court rejected Wednesday a lawsuit against Russia's education authorities over the compulsory teaching of evolution in schools.

Maria Shraiber, a high school girl from Russia's second city, and her father, Kirill Shraiber have said their suit does not seek to abolish the teaching of Darwinism in schools, which was official dogma in Soviet times, but to give schoolchildren the right to study other theories regarding the origins of life.

According to the schoolgirl's father, Shraiber had left school and the country, citing pressure from teachers and anonymous threats ever since the suit was filed in July last year.

"Masha used to be a good student, but after we filed the suit, she received six Ds on her quarterly report card," he said. "Of course, we expected some confrontation, but not like this."

Mr Shraiber said Maria had left for the Dominican Republic where she had already found a job at a real estate and travel agency.

The Shraiber family said they hoped the litigation would alter the curriculum and result in new textbooks that did not offer only one explanation for the origins of life.

"Darwin only presented a hypothesis that has not been proved by him or anyone else," Shraiber said. "Therefore, we think that when schools impose this theory on children as the only scientific option, they violate the human right of free choice."

Yelena Mamedova, deputy headmaster at the school, earlier said that Maria did not know biology well enough, even though she was a good student.

"Her grades were never very good in biology. I don't think she knows Darwin's theory very well," Mamedova said, adding that teachers had never discussed Maria's lawsuit.

Mamedova said Maria took her school records home with her late last year. "After the court hearings opened, Masha rarely turned up at school, and she has not explained her departure at all," she said.

The Russian lawsuit echoes a string of similar disputes in the United States over the teaching of Creationism alongside Darwinism in the school curriculum.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 21 Feb, 2007 01:52 pm
I can't see how that report is of much use to your own side wande.

I presume you all agree with the Russian position and are up for handing out "D"s for ideological reasons.
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