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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 Feb, 2007 04:48 pm
In case many of you wondered how I got im to rise. I was using a Penn Senator open bail reel with 8# Stren and an old Hula Popper. (This kind of big mouth doesnt learn from past strikes)
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 13 Feb, 2007 04:59 pm
Nicely played, fm - particularly the way you let him have a bit of slack to run with before you thumbed the drag and set the hook.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 13 Feb, 2007 05:27 pm
I thank you, my dad was always pointing out that you dont just yank on em like an ole tire.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 13 Feb, 2007 05:41 pm
A good way to lose the fish. LOL
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 13 Feb, 2007 06:10 pm
I didn't rise.

I haven't got off the bottom yet.

That I rose to the bait is simply another assertion on which to erect a grandiloquent self-flattering theory. A tautology in the service of the ego.

It's an apron string thing for want of another explanation.

I hated f*****g apron strings all my life.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 09:51 am
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
Kansas education board repeals guidelines questioning evolution
(John Hanna, Associated Press, February 14, 2007)

Kansas has repealed public school science guidelines questioning the theory of evolution that brought the state international ridicule, but educators aren't sure how long it will be before the decision is overturned.

The State Board of Education approved new, evolution-friendly science standards with a 6-4 vote Tuesday, replacing ones that questioned the theory and had the support of ''intelligent design'' advocates.

The change occurred because a coalition of Democrats and moderate Republicans won control of the board from conservative Republicans in last year's election. While conservatives said after Tuesday's vote they weren't planning to reopen the debate even if elections go their way in 2008, state law will require another review of the standards by 2014.

Another shift in power is possible. The latest science standards are the fifth for the state in eight years.

''I think we're good for two years,'' said board member Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat who supported the new standards. ''Who knows what the election will hold in two years?''

The new standards reflect mainstream scientific views of evolution. The board deleted language suggesting that key evolutionary concepts _ like a common origin for all life on Earth and change in species creating new ones _ were controversial and being challenged by new research.

The board also rewrote the standards' definition of science, specifically limiting it to the search for natural explanations of what's observed in the universe.

Some scientists and science groups believed the board's latest action was significant because it turned back a subtle attack on evolution that encouraged schools to teach about an evolution ''controversy,'' rather than mandating that creationism or intelligent design be taught. Intelligent design says an intelligent cause is the best way to explain some complex and orderly features of the universe.

The board's vote came a day after the 198th anniversary of Darwin's birth, which the University of Kansas celebrated with a costume party and a showing of a pro-evolution documentary, ''Flock of Dodos.''

But many Kansans still harbor religious objections and other misgivings about the British naturalist's theories. The Intelligent Design Network presented petitions with almost 4,000 signatures opposing the standards the board eventually adopted.

John Calvert, a retired attorney who helped found the group, accused the board of promoting atheism. And Greg Lassey, a retired Wichita-area biology teacher, said the new standards undermine families by ''discrediting parents who reject materialism and the ethics and morals it fosters.''
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 12:44 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
John Calvert, a retired attorney who helped found the group, accused the board of promoting atheism. And Greg Lassey, a retired Wichita-area biology teacher, said the new standards undermine families by ''discrediting parents who reject materialism and the ethics and morals it fosters.''


Has this newly constituted Board a genuine mandate for these changes when it is widely agreed that the election was a popular verdict on the war in Iraq?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 01:01 pm
spendius wrote:
wande quoted-

Quote:
John Calvert, a retired attorney who helped found the group, accused the board of promoting atheism. And Greg Lassey, a retired Wichita-area biology teacher, said the new standards undermine families by ''discrediting parents who reject materialism and the ethics and morals it fosters.''


Has this newly constituted Board a genuine mandate for these changes when it is widely agreed that the election was a popular verdict on the war in Iraq?


As explained before, moderate Republicans defeated conservative Republicans in the 2006 Kansas school board elections. The specific issue of science education played a major role (no Iraq issue in education).
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 03:26 pm
Okay wande-thanks.

It doesn't work like that here. Our mid-term things are notorious for protest about the Government. I don't think anybody would interfere with education policy on the strength of them. I don't think they even could. Not regarding anything significant I mean.

Our turn-outs in such things can be as low as 20% if the weather's bad. 35% is unusual in my experience. And the quality of the candidates is abysmal. I was once cajoled into standing but I wouldn't hear of it.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 05:34 pm
iN THE US, a number of states elect their education boards along with the other state govt offices like Governor or Lieutenant Governor. Other states (like Pa and MD) have their ed boards appointed by the governor AND they often can outlive the governors term. In Pa a board member or a commissioner can be reappointed for as many terms as ones rump can stand and one doesnt take advantage of the system percs.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 06:18 pm
I would guess fm that this must be because no respectable American would be seen dead ****-shifting and that being a "board member" or a "commissioner" would be the lowest of aspirational accomplishments.

Even somebody who only gazes at fossils all day would feel it necessary to be The Assistant Emeritus Professor of Boneology at the University of Pennsylvania to maintain any semblence of self-respect.

As Mr Veblen taught- Waste equals status and use equals odium.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 14 Feb, 2007 06:51 pm
Hence timber's "pretty nice" restaurants. He meant a wasteful method of taking on nutrient. Purely spiritual of course. Nothing whatever to do with scientific efficiency. The polar opposite in fact.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 06:28 am
Quote:
The grand power of poetry is its interpretative power; by which I mean, not a power of drawing out in black and white an explanation of the mystery of the universe, but the power of so dealing with things as to awaken in us a wonderfully full, new, and intimate sense of them, and of our relations with them. When this sense is awakened in us, as to objects without us, we feel ourselves to be in contact with the essential nature of those objects, to be no longer bewildered and oppressed by them, but to have their secret, and to be in harmony with them; and this feeling calms and satisfies us as no other can. Poetry,indeed, interprets in another way besides this; but one of its two ways of interpreting, of exercising its highest power, is by awakening this sense in us. I will not now inquire whether this sense is illusive, whether it can be proved not to be illusive, whether it does absolutely make us possess the real nature of things; all I say is, that poetry can awaken it in us, and that to awaken it is one of the highest powers of poetry. The interpretations of science do not give us this intimate sense of objects as the interpretations of poetry give it; they appeal to a limited faculty, and not to the whole man. It is not Linnaeus or Cavendish or Cuvier who gives us the true sense of animals, or water, or plants, who seizes their secret for us, who makes us participate in their life; it is Shakespeare, with his

"daffodils
That come before the swallow dares, and take
The winds of March with beauty;"

it is Wordsworth, with his

"voice . . . .heard
In springtime from the cuckoo-bird,
Breaking the silence of the seas
Among the farthest Hebrides;"

it is Keats, with his

"moving waters at their priestlike task
Of pure ablution round Earth's human shores;"


Matthew Arnold in his essay on Maurice De Guerin.

I'm not sure I ever read a decent writer who didn't take The Holy Bible as the starting point.

"While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in."

Bob Dylan- It's Alright Ma (I'm only bleeding).
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:46 am
Well, weve just had a stroll through the mind of spendi. Thee, and other random thoughts will soon appear in a collection of essays , arranged in no detectable order. The title of his book is tentatively,Here Now, I was Drinking That
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 09:52 am
I like that title fm.

As Guerin is in our minds at the moment along with the entertainment, and hopefully the enlightenment, of those A2Kers who show an interest in this thread I thought I might quote him again.

Quote:
It seems to me intolerable to appear to men other than one appears to God.


As AIDsers are not hypocritical phonies one supposes they would prefer-

"It seems to me intolerable to appear to men other than one appears to Science."

And to science one is a preconditioned bag of shite as any forensic scientist will gleefully inform you. The presence of "higher ideals" does nothing to alter that although it is capable of making it passably bearable if one is able, even spasmodically, of standing on the ocean until one starts sinking.

I like this one too. He is referring to the young Creole of some fortune who he married, one Mademoiselle Caroline de Gervain (Caro) who, he said-

Quote:
Destiny, who loves these surprises, has wafted from the farthest Indies into my arms.


That's almost Proustian.

He was skint.

What a pity that Science was too late to save him from the ravages of consumption.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 09:52 am
Quote:
Outreach and Education in Evolution Journal Launches
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 10:00 am
What are they selling wande?

Is it books? Or lectures? Or flesh coloured Christs that glow in the dark?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 10:45 am
I hope the Eldredges take a lesson from the NCSE magazine (published 4 times a year, except when they dont feel like it, ) The NCSE newsletter and Mag are such a crappy spokesletter for Evolution education that it would take a complete overhaul of it to even bring it up to date. Perhaps the Eldredges ought to "make an offer" to take over NCSE and install some discipline into what was, for a few years , a really good journal of evolution research news , and ID/Creationist debate. My new est issue (in Nov 2006) was only reporting on the findings of fact in the DOver case.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 12:19 pm
One hopes not in Mr Darwin's style with descriptions of plumage and personal habits.

We wouldn't wish to see a disciplined evolutionist scientist reporting on the facts regarding the Dover happening.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 15 Feb, 2007 01:43 pm
Oddly enough spendi, most of what we read lately re: Dover, are the IDapologists and anti-science revisionists who wish to change the scope of the trial outcome and add meaninglesss purposes to their own missions. Come to think of it, your perch doesnt stand too far from the revisionists there spendi.
You frequently, and at the top of your lungs like to remind us that "ID" is ultimately about the basis of morality. If you were to do an exhaustive search of earth and life scientists, youd find a limited number of them who'd agree with you. Most would agree with Nagels view that the source for morality i s the "view from nowhere"
Quote:
One hopes not in Mr Darwin's style with descriptions of plumage and personal habits.


Mr Darwin was always conveying a series of profound messages in his writing, and he was fully obsessed regarding the legs of natural selection. Could you have done it better? in as economic a style? Hell spendi, you cant even answer a simple question without adding another 30 miles of irrelevant diversion. When Darwin spent 3 years researching almost everything about the then known species of barnacle, he didnt include in the first ed of "The Origin..." but a few oblique references to his volumes of research, line drAWINGS and FIELD evidence of cirriped structure.
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