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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2007 05:09 pm
spendi, Most people living in developed countries are addicted to oil. My age has nothing to do with my beliefs concerning evolutionary theory; evidence is shown almost daily that evolution is alive and well.

The reason people study bats is the same reason we learn about their unique abilities and defenses. The more we learn about our world, the more we understand ourselves.

We also study birds, because they are carriers of aviary flu that impacts human health.

Your complaints about capitalism is baseless. You are the beneficiary of many things invented and discovered through science.

That you have a preference for the local pub over most everything else only shows how isolated you are in your thinking.

You are a hoot!
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2007 06:21 pm
I take exception to the suggestion that I have any complaints about Capitalism.

I think that Capitalism is the best thing ever invented in the whole history of organic life.

I don't give a sod for bat abilities and defenses. Flying around belfries was only possible for the silly phewkers after we made them them some belfries to fly around.

wande wrote-

Quote:
Is it your thesis that the teaching of evolution somehow corrupts young people?


Not exactly wande. Evolution is beyond corruption. It is determined. We are corrupt. Evolution is pure truth. And with it we are f****d.

If you don't mind being f****d to prove you are correct you are going to have a job getting me to vote for you. I don't like being f****d. I would rather be a complete ID-iot.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2007 06:44 pm
spendi, Have no fear, you are an IDiot.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2007 07:03 pm
Very Happy BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR SPENDI.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 1 Feb, 2007 08:16 pm
the importance of bats
* Borrowed from the web site on bats.Bats are the primary predator of night-flying insects such as moths, beetles, and mosquitoes. A single bat can catch hundreds of insects in just one hour, consuming from 30 to 50 percent of its body weight in insects each night.

A healthy colony of bats can protect gardens and crops from major damage by pest species such as cucumber beetles, moths, cutworm, corn earworm, leafhoppers, and June beetles. As each female moth can lay thousands of eggs, the control of even a few adults has an exponential effect.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:02 am
what is the reason for explaining the value of bats ci? Is someone denying that they exist?

Today, being groundhog day, celebrates the patron saint of the Weather Channel. It appears that our local ouijik has seen his shadow (because of all the TV lights no doubt) which means that our climate will endure an additional 6 weeks of winter, as opposed to the normal additional month and a half.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:58 am
I've just seen a report on Sky News abour GH day frpm Ponx-somewhere near where fm lives.

Ridiculous.

There were thousands of the silly sods all wrapped up and no doubt having just converted a load of gas into grandchildren's nightmare gazing reverently at nothing at all. Reminded me of lemmings actually.

It looked too cold to be a courtship ritual so I assumed they were all bored out of their minds. Is it mass hysteria fm? You wouldn't think half of them were divorced persons. The highlight was some tosser kissing a fat rodent on the nose.

Bats are a protected species here. If they colonise your attic you can get jailed for chucking them out.

c.i. wrote-

Quote:
A healthy colony of bats can protect gardens and crops from major damage by pest species such as cucumber beetles, moths, cutworm, corn earworm, leafhoppers, and June beetles. As each female moth can lay thousands of eggs, the control of even a few adults has an exponential effect.


Wouldn't evolution have fixed it so the females didn't have to lay so many eggs if there were no bats.

c.i. makes it sound as if evolution was designed so we could have fruit and veg.

I thought we sprayed 'em off.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 07:31 am
spendi
Quote:
Wouldn't evolution have fixed it so the females didn't have to lay so many eggs if there were no bats.
Thats the "Red Queen" hypothesis. The predator and prey develop a commensal rate of "keeping ahead" in their methods to acquire , or avoid becoming, a meal.
Hominids had a similar species attainment. As their pre-hominid "troupes" clustered more into larger bands, somehwere between H heidelbergensis and H ergaster there developed a protein sotted mind capable of more abstract thought due to more complex neural pathways. The hominids began to develop associations that transcended the life span of individuals and evidence of burial of dead and hence, the development of proto religious"rites". Id say at that point, or shorthly thereafter, it was when we invented God (and all the humanic benefits and trappings that you seem fond to lay at his/her feet).
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 08:14 am
Definitely "Her" fm.

As Steve Martin said in The Man With Two Brains- " I couldn't f**k a monkey.

You can have your teleology and I'll have mine.

When did they get a taste for sparkling jewels? What silly sod brought that about? Was it protein overload?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:25 am
Quote:
Creationism: A step backwards
(Taylor Kessinger, Arizona Daily Wildcat, February 2, 2007)

The controversy between creation and evolution continues to grow in this country. But is this simply an argument, or does it have more severe consequences?

To believe God created the world, in whatever manner He chose, demands just one thing: faith. But to be a creationist - that is, to believe that scientific evidence suggests a recent creation of the world in six Earth days - demands another thing entirely.

What is the difference? The former is a religious belief that demands respect like any other. The other is a malicious attack on American technological and scientific progress.

The creationist effort is spearheaded by two groups: victimized, misguided citizens and politicians who have been fed faulty information, and phony "scientists" who present their equally phony arguments in opposition to the "theory of evolution," a catch-all category that includes accepted scientific principles like common descent, abiogenesis and the Big Bang theory.

The issue is closer to home than you think. Gov. Mike Huckabee of Arkansas and Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas have both announced their intentions for the presidency, and like good old John McCain, they support the teaching of "alternate theories of origin" in science classes.

If school boards in Ohio, Kansas, and Pennsylvania are any indicator, the so-called "creation-evolution controversy" will be in your backyard soon - provided that it's not already.

Let's be up-front about one thing: There is not a single argument for creationism that does not rely on a severe misinterpretation of scientific evidence or, worse yet, of science itself. Ask any UA scientist and they'll tell you the same.

To circumvent this, creationists are fond of misrepresenting science and using cheap debate tactics. They know that their claims take much longer to refute than they do to set forth, which makes it appear as though they have a legitimate basis.

Here's an experiment you can perform yourself: Read aloud the common creationist claim that "there is no direct evidence for the Big Bang." Then, go and look up the words "cosmic background radiation" in the search engine of your choice.

Which one was easier and took less time? Which one is correct? Notice these two questions don't have the same answer.

The simple truth is that scientific theories adhere to principles such as testability, falsifiability, parsimony and naturalism. That last one is the most important: It's what prevents scientists from invoking magic, gremlins or God as explanations for physical phenomena. Creationism has none of these principles. There shouldn't even be a controversy; science clearly wins on its own grounds.

But creationism isn't just factually incorrect and mischievously dishonest. It's a direct detriment to our country's progress. That anyone can graduate from an American high school or university while still clinging to creationism suggests that students lack the critical thinking and research skills they need - not to mention the understanding of basic scientific concepts.

If the value in a good scientific education isn't self-evident, consider this. What does our scientific ignorance say about America's continued status as the most technologically advanced nation in the world? According to a 2006 Gallup poll, roughly 46 percent of Americans accept strict creationism. Compare this to other Western countries, where the figure is in the single digits.

It's nothing short of embarrassing.

Perhaps worse yet, creationism is an assault on faith itself. Theologians have long recognized, as Martin Luther did, the importance of faith, not evidence, as the guiding force behind belief - a sentiment that has been echoed in recent times by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Vatican, among others.

The time is nigh to take action. Courts all over the country need to keep up their strict, no-tolerance policies regarding creationism and its lightweight cousin, intelligent design, in classrooms. Intelligent Americans have the same duty to be informed about science as they do about politics or history, and UA students in particular should take advantage of the many available origins-oriented science courses as a means to that end.

And know that, should you choose to believe in God, your choice should be informed by faith and personal commitment - not by lies and faulty arguments.

Either way, don't be deceived by the crimes of creationism.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 10:34 am
spendi
Quote:
When did they get a taste for sparkling jewels?
425000 years ago, next Tuesday.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 11:35 am
farmerman, spendi wrote: I don't give a sod for bat abilities and defenses. Flying around belfries was only possible for the silly phewkers after we made them them some belfries to fly around.

I just responded to his post, above.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 02:38 pm
Good article, wande. I think Kessinger underestimates ID, though - its more than " ... a malicious attack on American technological and scientific progress ... "; its threat, focus, and activity is international, and ID-iocy is hardly the "lightweight cousin" of Creationism, its Creationism's burly, bull-headed, blustering, belligerent, bullying direct offspring.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 02:53 pm
However, ID "Cannot recall being associated with Creationism" (that should be said in a Sopranos accent.)
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 03:13 pm
If anything is burly, bull-headed, blustering, belligerent and bullying it is that post timber.

The concept if intelligent design is none of those things. You must be talking about the American business version known as Intelligent Design Inc. the supporters of which are anything other than intelligent if Dover was anything to go by. And the only design that seemed to have was money making and self publicity. You are saying that American methods are burly, bull-headed, blustering, belligerent and bullying.

The concept of intelligent design is gentle, tolerant and compassionate and embraced by Darwin himself.

It's as if "socialism" is to be discredited because the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics used the word.

Would you agree that the Civil Liberties gangs are civil or in favour of liberty or that the Humanist Associations are humanist.

You are piling up your own straw.

The concept of intelligent design does not believe that things are so complex that they "must" have been created by a supernatural intelligence. It simply does not cross out the notion in order to provide human beings with a potential explanation who have difficulty living without some explanation.

If you can live without that sort of thing does not mean that everybody can or should be expected to.

If America is falling behind in the scientific field, which I very much doubt, I think corrupt educational practices are much the liklier explanation and the maintenance of those requires a scapegoat. I daresay that, like us, you are losing a large proportion of high IQs from the lower classes and giving the jobs that should be theirs to dumbass middle-class favourites who are given grades reflecting their parent's ambitions.

We are trying to do something about it. I've seen no sign that you are.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 03:22 pm
Nice article but a few points:
Quote:
To believe God created the world, in whatever manner He chose, demands just one thing: faith.
No so, to believe God created the world also requires the suspension of disbelief, not all faiths have this requirement, such as the faith that the sun will be there when I wake up tomorrow.
Quote:
But to be a creationist - that is, to believe that scientific evidence suggests a recent creation of the world in six Earth days - demands another thing entirely. What is the difference? The former is a religious belief that demands respect like any other. The other is a malicious attack on American technological and scientific progress.
It's not my understanding that all creationists insist scientific evidence suggests a recent creation of the world in six Earth days, but that some creationists simply dismiss and/or dispute scientific evedence that suggests other than a recent creation of the world in six Earth days.
Quote:
The simple truth is that scientific theories adhere to principles such as testability, falsifiability, parsimony and naturalism. That last one is the most important: It's what prevents scientists from invoking magic, gremlins or God as explanations for physical phenomena. Creationism has none of these principles. There shouldn't even be a controversy; science clearly wins on its own grounds.
Of course there "should" be a "controversy' given that most people, most of the time, are neither scientific nor logical.
Quote:
But creationism isn't just factually incorrect and mischievously dishonest. It's a direct detriment to our country's progress. That anyone can graduate from an American high school or university while still clinging to creationism suggests that students lack the critical thinking and research skills they need - not to mention the understanding of basic scientific concepts.
Similar argument could be made as per many religious belief systems, what the author left out is that irrational, illogical and unscientific beliefs often live side by side in the same person (and the same society) as rational, logical, and scientific beliefs.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:29 pm
Chum wrote-

Quote:
irrational, illogical and unscientific beliefs often live side by side in the same person (and the same society) as rational, logical, and scientific beliefs.


Such as timber finding some restaurants he patronises "pretty" and not being aware of how the ambience inside them caters to support his belief that he is a superior person who, one would think, only goes to restaurants that are "pretty".

Cutting through the tautologies and self-flattering assertions it comes down to timber being "pretty" himself along with his lifestyle.

Restaurants cater to narcissistic and egotistical beliefs just like churches cater to humble and self-effacing beliefs.

Either, on their own, would be catastrophic. With no God one is oneself god which can get to be something of a strain on the nerves and require pharmaceutical interventions.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:39 pm
Restaurants without churches would be catastrophic?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 05:14 pm
Blather as you will, spendi, your feckless ramblings are of the same cloth and cut as the "breathtaking inanity" which Judge Jones exposed and demolished at Dover (note: 139 page .pdf download).

Quote:
... In his ruling, Judge Jones demolished assertions by members of Dover's former school board, or administrators, that the theory of intelligent design (ID) was based around scientific rather than religious belief.

He accused them of "breathtaking inanity", of lying under oath and of trying to introduce religion into schools through the back door.

The judge said he had determined that ID was not science and "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents".

In a 139-page written ruling regularly studded with criticism of the defendants' arguments, the judge said: "Our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom." ...
BBC, 21 Dec 2005


Ponder why no challenge has been mounted, no appeal filed, against that decision or any of its particulars. To save you time and effort, I'll supply the answer; no grounds for appeal exist - the issue is settled beyond contest.

The ludicrous, bullshit plaints of it proponents notwithstanding, ID-iocy demonstrably and unarguably is but camoflage for Creationism, a cobbled up evasion construct embraced in response to 1987's Aguilard decision.

Your position, spendi, amounts to defence and promotion of ignorance for the sake of defending and promoting ignorance. Your maunderings are no part of any solution, you're spectacularly illustrating and definitionally participating in the perpetuation of the problem.

And BTW - I did not say any restaurants I patronize were "pretty", I remarked that I felt it was my good fortune that some "pretty nice restaurants" were located conveniently nearby, a very different thing alltogether. You as charlatan and your argument as straw man are hoist by your own petard; your implication there is no less dishonest and scurilous than the contemptible, indefensible Creationist/ID-iot common practice of medaciously quote mining legitimate scientific and academic literature to falsely imply validation for the absurdity of Creationism/ID-iocy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:33 pm
timber quoted-

Quote:
... In his ruling, Judge Jones demolished assertions by members of Dover's former school board, or administrators, that the theory of intelligent design (ID) was based around scientific rather than religious belief.


Demolishing a silly idea like that would be easy for a tortoise. And they are not noted for rapidity of intellectual perspicacity.

Did it take him 139 pages to demolish a stupidity of that nature.

Methinks he was taking himself a little too seriously. He must have just liked composing long-wided bullshit in order to make his fee not look like pickpocketing.

Quote:
Our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom." ...


The beauty of the word "today" is that it says nothing about "tomorrow".

The judge relies on your inabilty to read and write. The clock strikes midnight and all bets are off despite the saps thinking otherwise. A smoke and mirrors trick popular in Homer's time.

There is no argument after midnight because nothing has been said pertaining to that time zone and it surprises me that any educated person might be mistaken about that.

Mr Blair works that one ten times a week. Nobody ever thinks of appealing. They just stare at the ceiling.

I don't see anything wrong with defending and promoting ignorance when it is all we have to work with.

Take the scientists on global warming for example. They seem to be agreed that science was a big mistake and that it is knackering the very air we breathe. Except for those who like being knackered.

I couldn't comprehend your final paragraph I'm afraid.
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