Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Hey RL-- you're entertainment.

I'd rather be a challenge.

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spendius wrote:

Hey RL-- you're entertainment.

I'd rather be a challenge.

How pitiful. You're not even that.

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I count insults ros. The more the merrier. They measure losers everytime.

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wandeljw wrote:

OHIO UPDATE

Quote:
State school board race evolves into debate over science
(By Katie Byard, Akron Beacon Journal, August 25, 2006)

Owens Fink calls Princehouse, Krauss and other scientists supportive of Sawyer ``members of the dogmatic scientific community'' who want to stifle discussion about ``the strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory.''

Strengths of evolutionary theory:

* The only scientific theory which explains biological conditions
* Highly predictive, with confirmed results
* Supported through mutually corroborative multi-disciplinary evidence
* Economically functional in medical and agricultural sciences
* Proven to be a fact, way beyond any reasonable doubt

Weaknesses of evolutionary theory:

* None

I think creationists are confusing "weaknesses" with "lack of detail". I don't know of any real "weakness" in evolutionary theory (at least none that are valid... we've seen tons of bogus arguments from creationists, but no valid complaints yet).

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There are a few areas of weakness that need to be honesty discussed

1. There are some (although not all)Overlapping species durations that cannot be accounted for adaptation alone (there must be some as yet unknown internal directive on what can cause rapid macroevolution while still retaining parent species beyond a critical environmental boundary)--Of course many will say that SURE dummy-We used species presence to define geological epochs

2Primitive forms occuring after first appearances of more "tuned up" forms-eg the coelocanth (Some SAy that this is merely an example of extreme adaptation to a narrow niche)

3 Genetic "switches" that require more than an identifiable gene set. (Extra chromosomal DNA seems to be the hot topic now)

4Extreme homologous structures in unrelated species separated by time and continental breaks.(bauplan theory says that there are only a few possible formulae for multiple morphology)

5Where did life start? (This is not evolution sensu strictu ) but the origin of the living state and the origin of corporeal information transfer is a subject with many students

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Responding to ros.

Where have you seen any arguments, bogus or otherwise, from Creationists on this thread?

One strong argument against evolutionary theory is that it seems to render its amateur proponents into permanent assertion mode and, by extension, into impossible people to conduct conversations with. One can only listen to them with whatever patience one can muster and try to refrain from patting them condescendingly.

They also have the quaint notion fixed firmly in their noggins that there is nothing they do not understand and hence that anything they don't understand has no possible credibility and thus can be contemptuously dismissed with a trite insult of the sort children commonly employ. This they see as a clinching argument which of course it is within the narrow confines in which such despicable methods are employed.

There must by now be hundreds, if not thousands, of examples to be seen up above.

That such personal self-satisfaction can be so easily achieved must be a matter of some concern to the authorities who would be amply justified in worrying about a society of 300,000,000 in which such intellectual laziness prevailed.

They are also very repetitive and will be bashing ears with the same old circularities when they are in their dotage assuming they have anyone left who will listen to them by then.

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Quote:

ADL Blasts Christian Supremacist TV Special & Book Blaming Darwin for Hitler
(U.S. Newswire, August 22, 2006)

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today blasted a television
documentary produced by Christian broadcaster Dr. D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries that attempts to link Charles Darwin's theory of evolution to Adolf Hitler and the atrocities of the Holocaust. ADL also denounced Coral Ridge Ministries for misleading Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute for the NIH, and wrongfully using him as part of its twisted documentary, "Darwin's Deadly Legacy."

After being contacted by the ADL about his name being used to promote Kennedy's project, Dr. Collins said he is "absolutely appalled by what Coral Ridge Ministries is doing. I had NO knowledge that Coral Ridge Ministries was planning a TV special on Darwin and Hitler, and I find the thesis of Dr. Kennedy's program utterly misguided and inflammatory," he told ADL.

ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman said in a statement: "This is an outrageous and shoddy attempt by D. James Kennedy to trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust. Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people. Trivializing the Holocaust comes from either ignorance at best or, at worst, a mendacious attempt to score political points in the culture war on the backs of six million Jewish victims and others who died at the hands of the Nazis.

It must be remembered that D. James Kennedy is a leader among the distinct group of 'Christian Supremacists' who seek to "reclaim America for Christ" and turn the U.S. into a Christian nation guided by their strange notions of biblical law."

The documentary is scheduled to air this weekend along with the publication of an accompanying book "Evolution's Fatal Fruit: How Darwin's Tree of Life Brought Death to Millions."

A Coral Ridge Ministries press release promoting the documentary says the program "features 14 scholars, scientists, and authors who outline the grim consequences of Darwin's theory of evolution and show how his theory fueled Hitler's ovens."

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

I just heard about this. This program will be televised tomorrow and Sunday. Blogs all over the internet are talking about it.

The host of the documentary states: "Simply put, no Darwin no Hitler." I saw a comment about this on someone's blog. The blogger retorted: "No Newton, no falling on my ass when I am drunk."

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farmerman wrote:

There are a few areas of weakness that need to be honesty discussed

1. There are some (although not all)Overlapping species durations that cannot be accounted for adaptation alone (there must be some as yet unknown internal directive on what can cause rapid macroevolution while still retaining parent species beyond a critical environmental boundary)--Of course many will say that SURE dummy-We used species presence to define geological epochs

2Primitive forms occuring after first appearances of more "tuned up" forms-eg the coelocanth (Some SAy that this is merely an example of extreme adaptation to a narrow niche)

3 Genetic "switches" that require more than an identifiable gene set. (Extra chromosomal DNA seems to be the hot topic now)

4Extreme homologous structures in unrelated species separated by time and continental breaks.(bauplan theory says that there are only a few possible formulae for multiple morphology)

5Where did life start? (This is not evolution sensu strictu ) but the origin of the living state and the origin of corporeal information transfer is a subject with many students

Fair enough.

Those seem to be interesting points which will be a refreshing change of debate from the usual pile of spendi garbage.

However, none of the things you mentioned are likely to undermine the basic tenets of evolution, which is what the creationists are implying by their "discuss the strengths and weaknesses" rant. Agreed?

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One might look below as well as above for the qualities I mentioned just now.

wande's quote is assertion enriched and-

Quote:

Those seem to be interesting points which will be a refreshing change of debate from the usual pile of spendi garbage.

contains four bald assertions and five is one ignores the "seems".

TEST. Count the assertions in wande's quote including the compound ones. Don't try it for all wande's quotes though. You'll get dizzy and won't need to be drunk to fall flat on your face.

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At first, the information in Wandel's post about Coral Ridge ministries was just appalling, almost unbelievable. But, upon reflection, it occurs to me that outrageous attacks such as this just further marginalize the right wing cranks who push such an agenda. It will take time, of course, to overcome the more subtle efforts and propaganda of the creationist crowd. But every event such as this can only redound to the effectiveness of measures to portray these jokers as wild-eyed extremists.

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Is it really not possible, at this late stage and after repeated reminders at regular intervals, that Creationists don't appear on this thread. There are threads where Creationists do appear.

Is it too much to ask that ros and Setanta confine their discussions on Creationism to their proper place and stop insulting our intelligence.

The regulars on here have been agree about the literal validity of Creationism, a Protestant cult centred on The Bible, since day one.

That is what I call "ruining" a thread not what Setanta said "ruins" a thread that has had 1500 views in four days and is going on for 7,000 posts. That was one useless assertion if you want to check it out.

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I saw earlier a Promenade Concert performance of the 5th symphony of Sibelius.

A voice over the applause said that the composer had been asked after he published it what had inspired him to write it and he had replied something to the effect that God had opened the doors of heaven and asked him to try to draw a picture of it.

Such a remark is obviously fatuous to an anti-IDer and deserving of the most ****-slinging ridicule and thus, by obvious extension so is Sibelius himself (RIP) and his bloody silly music. Having applied his ready wit in the service of his objectives and repeated them a good few times our anti-IDers fertile brain will eventually have the dramatic insight to wonder if any other composers have felt inspired by a similar idea that Sibelius had and, on doing his research, he will throw most of his music collection away and begin to react like Alex in A Clockwork Orange on hearing even short snatches of any of it on things like commercials or in national ceremonies.

Pick that out of your teeth ros. Neat bit of spendi garbage for you eh?

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Anti-ID music would sound like a canteen on a large army training base using metallic cutlery and steel chair legs which the rubbers have all been removed from for unspecified reasons which are under investigation.

Having said that I have heard music in a similar sound. In a large engineering factory and on the soundtrack over the first scene in Saturday Night and Sunday Morning which needs must full volume.

Eraserhead is another movie which tried it.

It's pub time. Friday night is half-tit night.

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all I can say about Coral Ridge Ministries is "what will people do to get spin going about their views?" I guess Ill have to record it and see.

Ros, Yes, Ive posted those among a number of other questions about evolution and its MECHANISMS. These are areas that we obviously have a limited knowledge at present and , since good ole iiggorance is what keeps us going, I see these questions being tackled and overcome.

The evolutionary synthesis is not in any kind of disarray, in fact it keeps getting stronger. When you think about it, science is busying itself with answering these kinds of detils while IDers are out trying to connect the entire mechanism to a deity or an alien and Creationists are just busy making believe that the Bible is a science book.

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Quote:

Pick that out of your teeth ros. Neat bit of spendi garbage for you eh?

Quote:

Anti-ID music would sound like a canteen on a large army training base using metallic cutlery and steel chair legs which the rubbers have all been removed from for unspecified reasons which are under investigation.

Quote:

over the first scene in Saturday Night and Sunday Morning which needs must full volume.

Spendi has seen his shadow from outside his den, does that mean we shall have 6 more weeks of winter?

Quote:

That was one useless assertion if you want to check it out.

Well, hes answered his own questions again.

Quote:

Where have you seen any arguments, bogus or otherwise, from Creationists on this thread?

Duhhh?

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fm wrote-

Quote:

all I can say about Coral Ridge Ministries is "what will people do to get spin going about their views?" I guess Ill have to record it and see.

No need fm. Save some energy. Anything is the answer and some of it you don't know about yet. If you need to record it to find that out you must have been hibernating.

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fm wrote-

Quote:

IDers are out trying to connect the entire mechanism to a deity or an alien

Not quite true because I'm back now but while I was out I did do exactly that. I don't think she was an alien though. Aliens don't go in pubs wearing only a 2oz one piece, black silk temptation's curtain and stiletto heeled polished shoes do they?

It's a good job I'm a mature ascetic.An immature one would have had no chance.

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spendius wrote:

I saw earlier a Promenade Concert performance of the 5th symphony of Sibelius.

A voice over the applause said that the composer had been asked after he published it what had inspired him to write it and he had replied something to the effect that God had opened the doors of heaven and asked him to try to draw a picture of it.

Such a remark is obviously fatuous to an anti-IDer and deserving of the most ****-slinging ridicule and thus, by obvious extension so is Sibelius himself (RIP) and his bloody silly music. Having applied his ready wit in the service of his objectives and repeated them a good few times our anti-IDers fertile brain will eventually have the dramatic insight to wonder if any other composers have felt inspired by a similar idea that Sibelius had and, on doing his research, he will throw most of his music collection away and begin to react like Alex in A Clockwork Orange on hearing even short snatches of any of it on things like commercials or in national ceremonies.

Pick that out of your teeth ros. Neat bit of spendi garbage for you eh?

Yes, a perfect example of spendi garbage. Not even worth reading past the first five words (which is where I stopped, having seen it all before). Thanks for the example.

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Gee ros-

You can detect garbage from-

Quote:

I saw earlier a Promenade Concert

You should get a job in pollution control. They must be looking for a sniffer dog which is that good.

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farmerman wrote:

The evolutionary synthesis is not in any kind of disarray

And that was my point when I said there were no weaknesses in the theory.

Just because we lack detail in certain areas does not imply weakness in the basic theory. Quite the contrary, we have lacked detail since Darwin published the idea, and in every case when we have found the details, they have strengthened the basic theory.

Genetics is the best example. Evolution predicted that organisms passed on their traits, but how? A genetic function of some type was predicted by the theory, and later confirmed (in excruciating detail).

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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