Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

You have a good point about the evils or riders, FM. I would submit to you, however, that even the House bill is going to have problems with judicial review--either it will not have been worded in a manner to acccomplish the desired end, and will be judicially ignored, or it will be struck down. You cannot deprive anyone of property without due process, which is already provided for in the constitution. To that extent, the bill is meaningless, as courts already take such matters into consideration. Such legislation would likely only stand in matters of public domain or eminent domain condemnation of private property, and not in matters of compensation resulting from litigation--i think the most they would be able to accomplish would be to reduce or eliminate punitive damages in class-action suits involving governmental entities. (I don't think they could eliminate punitive damages in suits of corporate "persons" or private persons--although i could be wrong about that.)

Of course, the entire House is up for re-election, which would explain broad support for a measure designed at impressing the electorate with the vigilance of House members. Still and all, it would have more prospect of success as a rider than as a "stand-alone" bill.

Say FM, is Ricky up for re-election this term?

yeh, and hes doing what he does best, PANDERING. He separated himself from ID the day that Jones came down with his decision. All along prior to that Ol Rick was hosting meetings and taking positions that "good science demands that ID and evolutionary theory be taught together" He and spendi have much in common, high density and low porosity.

The local right wing radio stations , all with their local Rush wannabees are queing up to ask him all the "beach ball" questions in order to shore up his place in the polls.

"High density and low porosity" . . . that's priceless, thanks for a good laugh, FM.

ARIZONA UPDATE



(I still feel that politicians are making statements about the teaching of intelligent design without really understanding the issue.)

Just words.

How can I have anything in common with someone who thinks ID and evolutionary theory should be taught together.

I'm on the record on more occasions that I can remember saying the precise opposite. fm either can't read or has memory problems.

It must be an incredible experience living within earshot of you guys. I'll bet even the trees lean outwards from the epicentre when activity begins.

Safe bet - pols take their cues from focus groups, headlines, and opinion polls; if it seems to a pol (or the pol's handlers) its something that might garner votes, the pol's solidly behind it, whether or not the pol knows anything about it, and there are damned few issues a pol knows any more about than how the issue relates to the constituancy at the focus of the pol's pandering.

wande wrote-



I have the distinct impression that they are not alone.

timber wrote-



A scientific dictatorship would soon fix that little problem. Anybody who thinks a politician should do otherwise is a dreamer and doesn't believe in democracy. That's the nature of politicians. They practise the art of the possible. Didn't Robespierre define the principle?

They have you to keep them company, spendi.

Not at all wande. You're blustering again.

It's you guys who haven't a clue. You have spent so long linking the idea of an intelligent designer to creationism because doing so renders it easy for you to understand that you now have no hope of plumbing the depth of the idea.

Everything I've read on here, and elsewhere, written by anti-IDers betrays a powerful need to understand things and various aspects of media pander to that need and lead you into thinking that you do understand things. Assertion then becomes the internalised form of discourse which, as I expect even you recognise, is the polar opposite of scientific thinking.

Once started on such a road the sources of the information become an authority figure on high, the expert say or your God, rewarding your ego with sweet titbits of subtle flattery in the traditional Pavlovian manner and invariably whilst you are sat on your backside. And the further you go on that road the more protective and defensive you get and both those are signs of insecurity.

Of course not, what typical drivel from Spurious. Robsepierre took control of the Comité de salut publique entirely by parliamentary means, after having helped to establish it. He engrossed more and more power for himself until he ended up despised and an object of public ridicule. Few tears if any (outside his landlord's family) were shed at his passing.

It is amazing the trouble you'll go to to prove what we already know--you don't know what the Hell you're talking about, and you make it up as you go along.

Robespierre is reported as having said something to the effect-

"Where is the mob going? I am it's leader". I was simply alluding to the seeming criticism of politicians using focus groups and opinion polls to determine their stance.

I asked-



I didn't say he had said it. It was reported that he had said it just like what you said about him was presumably reported. You seem to think that the sources you have read are the only ones with validity but I now know that anti-IDers know no other way forward so I'm not surprised in the least. You won't find me accusing you of making it up as you go along.
You have had it made up for you just like I have.

From the point of view of highlighting the principle it doesn't even matter whether he said it or not. Do you view the 70 million American schoolchildren with the same aloof view that you bring to Robespierre's life and career? I have noticed on the thread that the schoolchildren have sunk out of sight in the blizzard of self-congratulatory scholarship you have been gracing the thread with of late. You obviously don't give a sod about them. Anti-ID is just a stick for you to bang your drum with.

Perhaps if you read the posts of others with a little more care you wouldn't need to jump up and down ranting with rage and frustration every time someone tickles the bars of your cage with a feather.

Is it really too much to ask that you conduct the debate in the manner of a reasonably well educated person?

Your last sentence is gibberish using the term objectively to mean internally inconsistent.

The source to which i will refer, the classic source, is The French Revolution, by Thomas Carlisle. I suggest you read it before you shoot off your mouth again on a topic about which you obviously know nothing. Your mob remark is apocryphal. Robespierre was a fastidious and vaingloriously little man who abhorred and avoided the mob. All that he accomplished he accomplished by Machiavellian means within the National Assembly. Robespierre never appealed to the mob, and never attempted to lead them.

The point about politicians made by the Big Bird was simply an observation of fact, and there is no reason to have construed it as being a criticism. But it is not unusual that you both fail to follow the line of discussion about practical politics in the United States, and try to turn it into another display of your silly ego.

Quote Bob "I never met anyone i liked as much as i like myself" Zimmerman for us again, Spurious. It's so cute when you try to make that idiot sound wise.

Setanta quoted-



I haven't seen that before but I see nothing wrong with the statement. It merely echoes the meaning of Orwell's famous book.

It's the truth. It is why I tell ladies, and others of a sensitive disposition, not to read the book.

Bob does tell the truth. Have you been indulging yourself with the idea that you are virtuous and like others more than yourself for very long.
It's delusional. A self congratulatory delusion and a very useful strategy for having people on with. Winston Smith with the rats was only a metaphor. Good metaphors must needs be extreme. His tormentor was satisfied once he had admitted that he had - "never met anyone" he "liked as much as himself." He let him go then.

I once went to Jura to see the cottage and the place scared the **** out of me. Are you not aware that the great artists have waded through that maze of reportings and hagiography you still wander in and extracted from it the essential truths?

BTW-

The tormentor, and what he stood for, represents anti-ID in action.

Bob "Let's forget i grew up in Hibbing, Minnesota" Zimmerman wouldn't know an essential truth if it bit him on the ass.

You just quoted one.

And it took guts to be that honest. You don't think, I hope, that he didn't know what sweet folks like you would think about it.

He doesn't do popularity contests.

He doesn't do popularity contests . . . that's so incredibly and idiotically hilarious . . . how do you suppose the popular music business works, Spurious?

God, you crack me up. By the way, Bob "I'm an even bigger misogynist than Spendi" Zimmerman didn't reveal anything to anybody--he was unable to hide the fact of his origins. There's nothing wrong with being from Hibbing--there is something wrong with coming from the midwest and touting yourself as the archetypal sophisticate, though.

Imagine the singer/songwriter you have in mind getting his first shot at Big Time TV on (Ed Sullivan I think) and on discovering that the "music business" wouldn't allow him to sing "Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues", told them to shove their show up their f*****g arse and sodded off.

And if he was unable to hide the fact of his origins, assuming he wanted to which you seem to think on account of not doing irony, why would he say, and assuming he did say it-



instead of- Let's forget where I grew up - and leave out the place names.

T'was a jest to give you all something to get daft ideas about so you could parade your useless and pointless knowledge more fatuously.

I'd bet money he emphasised "Minnesota" slightly more than he had emphasised "Hibbing" in the speaking part which you deaden on the screen. And maybe done a mild SE's grin. (see Greil Marcus).

Go talk to the schoolkids.

And is Mr Dylan the only American whose change of name you refuse to respect. Why are you so obsessed with him as to pick him out of those millions who also changed their names and reject his. Or do you reject all the others which you need to do to avoid the charge of victimisation based on your own take of things which it looks like we are going to have to recognise the superiority of to avoid getting **** on which presumably would be crucifixition if the power was there.

Anti-IDers OUT! Up The ID-iots!!

God, you're hilarious. If there is anyone here who doesn't do irony, it's you. I haven't claimed Zimmerman said any of those things--it's called satire, Spurious. What a putz . . . a legend in your own mind. How appropriate that Bob "I wouldn't cross the street to spit on Spendi" Zimmerman is your hero.