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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 01:52 pm
Are you on the wagon c.i.?

If you have actually been to Russia and you told someone that you believed you had been to Russia they would probably look at you with a funny look.

But one never knows- some people keep strange company.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 02:00 pm
Compared to you, spendi, I'm on the "wagon."

How would you know anything outside of your home and pub? Seems to most of us that you're the one suffering from myopia.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 02:24 pm
Maintain it at "seems" c.i. and then it remains a function of your own mind which is the only certainty.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 02:28 pm
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
Evolution debate heats up for election season
(By JOHN HANNA, Associated Press, July 8, 2006)

TOPEKA -- An anti-evolution group launched an Internet campaign Friday to build support for Kansas science standards in schools, less than a month before elections that could decide whether those standards remain.

Officials from the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, based in Seattle, said they're trying to counter criticism of the standards from many scientists and national science groups.

John West, a center vice president, said in a national conference call with reporters that such criticism has resulted in a ''wildly distorting'' picture of the standards.

The standards, adopted last year by the State Board of Education's conservative majority, don't mention intelligent design or other alternatives to evolution. But they treat evolution as a flawed theory, defying mainstream scientific views. Critics contend parts of the standards are based on long-discredited arguments about evolution.

West said the center won't endorse candidates or otherwise become involved in races for five state board seats on the ballot. Instead, he said, its ''Stand Up for Science'' efforts, which involve a new Web site with a petition that can be signed and possibly radio ads, are designed to educate Kansans.

But Jack Krebs, president of Kansas Citizens for Science, which opposes the anti-evolution standards, said the timing of the campaign is no coincidence.

Of the five seats on the Aug. 1 primary ballot this year, four are held by conservative Republicans who supported the new standards. If two conservatives are defeated, it would shift the board's majority to the moderates.

''The intelligent design movement as a whole knows that if they can retain the majority, they'll have a victory,'' Krebs said. ''If they lose it, it will be another crushing defeat for intelligent design.''

The standards took effect in November and will be used to develop tests students take to measure how well schools are teaching, but decisions about what actually will be taught remain with 299 local school boards. Some educators fear pressure will increase to teach less about evolution or more about creationism or intelligent design, which says some features of the universe are so well-ordered and complex that they are best explained by an intelligent cause.

West and other backers contend the new standards will encourage a freer discussion in the classroom.

''Obviously, we favor intelligent design, but our science policy is that we favor good science education,'' West told reporters.

Critics see intelligent design as repackaged creationism. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that creationism can't be taught in public schools because it endorses a particular religious view.

West said the Kansas standards encourage schools to expose students to both the strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory. He refused to say how much the center plans to spend on its campaign but that it's necessary because of a ''year of misinformation.''

Krebs said trying to expose students to supposed problems with evolution is part of a strategy designed to lead them to embrace intelligent design.

The new standards say evolutionary theory that all life had a common origin has been challenged in recent years by fossil evidence and molecular biology. They also describe as controversial the theory that changes over time in one species can lead to a new species.

None of those statements were in Kansas' previous standards, which treated evolution as well-established and universally accepted by scientists.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 03:24 pm
hey- listen to this-

cicerone imposter wrote-

Quote:
I've had occasions of reading my 'horoscope' in the local newspaper, but it's only for 'entertainment' purposes. I don't believe in such things, but once in a great while, something will match what it says - sometimes a few days off. I call that 'coincidence.' They're general enough where many interpretations can be made from what it says, such as "you'll travel to a far off land." It's true, on Monday, I'm off to South America for fifteen days. c.i..


He reads his horoscope and he tells a bloke who has never read a horoscope in his life, thinking they were for ladies, that he's myopic.

And ""I'm off to South America for fifteen days." as if anybody gives an on the winger where he's off to.

I've seen a good few posts about how he's the black sheep of the family which is,of course, a very high grade family judging from some of the qualities the members of it have according to him.

I think that psychological stuff about projection might have more validity than I have previously thought.

And he laughs at his own jokes if such they are.

I wish I had more time to search because there are some myopic beauties buried back there from c.i. if anyone dare bring themselves to look.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 03:41 pm
spendi, If you save a visit to the pub, you can "research" to your heart's content. Wink Might be worth your time since you already believe in mythical gods.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 03:58 pm
from the bases of the new Kansas "science standards"
Quote:
The new standards say evolutionary theory that all life had a common origin has been challenged in recent years by fossil evidence and molecular biology. They also describe as controversial the theory that changes over time in one species can lead to a new species.

They have absolutely no idea of what they speak. Even the IDers agree on common descent and the fact of the fossil records of species.
i wonder who is
doing the challenging? Obviously no one with a science profession.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 05:14 pm
It's not me fm.

I think Darwin was a genius except when he was fecundating when his theory was telling him that he really didn't ought to being and he knew it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 05:27 pm
Gee, I know spendi has a college education, because he can use words like "fecundating." He may have also picked up this word at the local pub.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 05:53 pm
Forget it c.i.

I have been educated by the maestros of English, French,Irish and American literature.

All you ever learn at colleges is how that is a load of baloney. Once I had learned how to read in primary school I took it from there. Colleges are a business which design programs to prove how very special parental genetic material is and this explains their popularity. There's nothing like a master's degree to get Mums and Dads approving their pockets being picked by a bunch of shysters.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 05:53 pm
The proposed revisions to the Kansas science standards were passed by a 6-4 vote in 2005. The revisions will not go into effect until 2007. In November 2006, four of the six board members who voted for the change are up for re-election. If these four are replaced by moderates, the newly configured board can repeal the revisions before they go into effect.

These are the revisions:
Quote:
"The view that living things in all the major kingdoms are modified descendants of a common ancestor (described in the pattern of a branching tree) has been challenged in recent years by (i) discrepancies in the molecular evidence, (ii) a fossil record that is not consistent with gradual increases in complexity, and (iii) studies that show that animals follow different rather than identical early stages of embryological development."

"New heritable traits may result from new combinations of genes and from random mutations or changes in the reproductive cells. Except in very rare cases, mutations that may be inherited are neutral, deleterious or fatal."

"Whether microevolution (change within a species) can be extrapolated to explain macroevolutionary changes (such as new complex organs or body plans and new biochemical systems which appear irreducibly complex) is controversial."

"The lack of adequate natural explanations for the genetic code, the sequences of genetic information necessary to specify life, the biochemical machinery needed to translate genetic information into functional biosystems, and the formation of proto-cells"

"The sudden rather than gradual emergence of organisms near the time that the Earth first became habitable"
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 06:01 pm
I'm moderately pissed just now wande but I will come back to your post when I can concentrate better.

I thought it important to say that as I wouldn't want you to think I had gone to bed due to anything other than my own incompetance.

How do you spell incompetance.Is it an "a" or an "e". This John Smith's Extra Smooth really wrecks my intellectual compe--no skills.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 06:24 pm
Quote:
except when he was fecundating when his theory was telling him that he really didn't ought to being and he knew it.


Would I be correct were I to attribute this to an attenuation of synaptic effects resulting from an over- assimilation of Mr Smiths Extra Smooth? or would there be some actual meaning here?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 8 Jul, 2006 06:30 pm
sleep tight spendi
Quote:
Come, messmates, pass the bottle 'round
Our time is short, remember,
For our grog must stop,
And our spirits drop,
On the first day of September.
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
Tomorrow we'll be sober.

Farewell old rye, 'tis a sad, sad word
But alas! it must be spoken,
The ruby cup must be given up,
And the demijohn be broken.
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
Tomorrow we'll be sober.

Jack's happy days will soon be gone,
To return again, oh never!
For they've raised his pay five cents a day,
But stopped his grog forever.
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
Tomorrow we'll be sober.

Yet memory oft' will backward turn,
And dwell with fondness partial,
On the days when gin was not a sin,
Nor cocktails brought courts-martial.
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
Tomorrow we'll be sober.

All hands to splice the main brace, call,
But splice it now in sorrow
For the spirit-room key will be laid away
Forever, on tomorrow.
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
For tonight we'll merry, merry be,
Tomorrow we'll be sober.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 06:47 am
Not all tomorrow. Just the boring part.

Quote:
Quote:
except when he was fecundating when his theory was telling him that he really didn't ought to (be)being and he knew it.


Would I be correct were I to attribute this to an attenuation of synaptic effects resulting from an over- assimilation of Mr Smiths Extra Smooth? or would there be some actual meaning here?


I'm sorry.I obviously expect too much from my readers. I don't suppose it is fair to assume they know something about the man to whom they give their allegiance. Poor Emma. I daresay that she often thought that if she had her time over again she would have married someone else.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 07:13 am
your readers are better at reading than you are at writing. Whats your poinT? That by fathering children with his cousin/wife, this was a demonstration of a loss of hybrid vigor because of the close familial linneages? Isuggest a careful re-read of The Descent of Man to gather what Darwin thought of hybrid vigor and sexual selection. I submit that he had little clue of what I think you mean.


Emma was quite devoted to Charles all their lives and, when he finalized his 6th edition and his descent of man, she spoke with church leaders to interced so that that by him recanting some of his "heresies" she would have helped guaranteethat Charles and Emma would spend eternity together. Her letters , and their own lifelong correspondence(imagine writingletters to your own wife every day) has been collected and edited a number of years ago in a volume that , by victorian standards would have been considered scandalous.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 08:58 am
The point is that the union was not blessed with progeny which could have had much hope for survival in any conceivable setting characterised by the principles of a struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest.

To quote Desmond and Moore-

"Family inbreeding had long worried him.There were now four first-cousin marriages between the Darwins and Wedgewoods,with his an Emma's own.Of the ten Darwin children,two had died young from natural causes and the signs were ominous for the rest: George was sick and home from school, Etty languished in bed every morning, Lizzy still behaved strangely, and the baby was not normal. Charles believed that the main problem was hereditary: that his own constitutional weakness had been passed on, accentuated by Emma's Wedgewood blood. The struggle for existence had already set in, and he expected the children's health to fail at any time. Nine or so was the critical age; that was when Annie became so ill. Since her death the thought had put him through agonies, and he waited for nature to exploit the fatal flaw. All of them except William,who was nearly seventeen, were potential victims."

And yet he ploughed on fecundating nine into existence as if he was trying to wreck the species and then using his money and influence to promote their careers so that they could have power and authority. Poor Emma.

His own illnesses included boils, dizzy spells, eczema, epilepsy, flatulence, gout, headaches, weak heart, inflamed lips and vomiting for which he tried numerous forms of quackery.

Marx and Engels called his masterwork-"a bitter satire on men and nature". Marx scoffed -"Darwin recognises among beasts and plants his English society."

"The war of all against all"

"Laissez-faire run amok, throat slitting competition."

"Might is right."

"Napoleon was right and every cheating tradesman is also right."

"Origin would gratify the free-market fanatics who reduce all the laws of action and human thought habitually to the lowest and most sordid motives."

"The Malthusian circle was ecstatic."

Thus,social amelioration is drivel.

Ken Lay was a saint.

Price gouging is perfectly natural and worthy.

Let the kids hear nothing else. Oh yeah!
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 09:46 am
AGain, your quotation of extensive hyperbole(not to mention the buckshot style of your own) results in an unquestioning acceptance of your Mssres Demond and Morris.
Of the 10 Darwin children 3 died.
I at childbirth
1 at 2 of ill health since birth
1died o tb at 10

The remaining 7 children ( quite average odds in the 1840s to 1850s), all turned out prwty well
1 lived a long life as a successful banker
1 daughter, was principal editor of Emmas letters . She died at like 86
1 became a famous astronomer /mathemetician/lawyer
1Unmarried daughter (unevented liife, but lived to be almost 80)
1 An important botanist in ag science, was knighted in his mid 70s
1A son who was a military engineer and became an MP, died well into his 90's
1An engineer/inventor, founded Cambridge Scientific Supply ltd..

Darwin didnt know much about hybrid vigor, in fact he was certain that the ague that plagued him throughout his life (a condition that today would clearly be treated by antianxiety medicines ) would be inherited by his children.



To provide a counterbalance to your lifted quotes from various sources about Darwins work, is the NAtional ACademy which stated that Darwins "Idea" was the single greatest idea of the last millenium.
Anyway What did Marx and Engels know a damn about making tender chicken?(or biology for that matter) ( I must insert here that my previous statement about "tender chicken" is a now rather obscure "colonial reference" tangentially hitting on our penchant for expanded acceptance of expertise. In this reference, Mr Frank Perdue, then alive, took grand exception to how the US govt gradeds chickens. His comment was ,"if Youre gonna accept the governments standards of grade A, who do you complain to, the president? what does he know about chickens?")
I thought Id try my hand at circuitous routes of logic. (of course mine is without the aid of Mr Smith and his extra smooth suds)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 10:03 am
some of shpendis random thoughts and recollections
Quote:
"The war of all against all"

"Laissez-faire run amok, throat slitting competition."

"Might is right."

"Napoleon was right and every cheating tradesman is also right."

"Origin would gratify the free-market fanatics who reduce all the laws of action and human thought habitually to the lowest and most sordid motives."

"The Malthusian circle was ecstatic."

Thus,social amelioration is drivel.

Ken Lay was a saint.

Price gouging is perfectly natural and worthy.

Let the kids hear nothing else. Oh yeah!


Yes you did say all that ot loud. You have the odd mixture of absorbing and trying to distance yourself from creationism, yet you use all the quotes that are not part of Darwins own writings , but those taken and presented out of context to support Creationism because these out of context statements were being used to support non Darwinian social theories, all of which are irrelevant to natural selection. Thats a Creationist trick, even the IDers dont sink that low.

We have to allow our children to hear the context in whic Nat selection was developed as an observational and testable hypothesis that grew to a theory.
When you were recently patting yourself on the back about how someone (obviously one who didnt get out much) was praising you as a potentially great teacher whose classes would be very popular, I thought. "yeh maybe she thinks so, but the duty of a teacher isnt to leave the little dears more confused than when they signed up for your courses. I know thats of little concern to you since everything is about you in your mind. I, alas, anwer to another code"Above all else , dont make em dumber"

You seem to, besides trying to occupy so many positions that you dont do a competent job occupying any one, try to provide a positive spin for ID. Yet, youve almost abandoned any attempts at a reasonable application of science principles. You seem to just want to gloss over minor things like "facts" "evidence" an "Historic record".Well, Im being summoned to go antique hunting. Guess Ill load up the ole squirrel gun and go out and bag some. Ill check in later, be kind
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 9 Jul, 2006 10:17 am
spendi is an enigma - even to the regulars at the pub he frequents.
0 Replies
 
 

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