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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Jun, 2006 02:05 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
Because ecological, biochemical, genetic, and paleontological finds have failed to provide support for any competing theory; and because current alternative theories are fundamentally not scientific, it would be irresponsible and disingenuous to teach any theory other than Darwinian evolution in science courses in our nation's public schools.


I suppose you'll be surprised to learn that I agree with that assuming it refers to origins which it doesn't say it does.

But then again-if irresponsibilty and disingenuousness are eradicated do you have schools at all? You would have no teachers surely. Or are teachers expected to be non-human?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Fri 2 Jun, 2006 02:05 pm
spendius wrote:
timber wrote-

Quote:
spendi - ineed - however could we have gotten on sans Balderdash, Pablum, and Trivial Pursuit?


You have never needed to. They are self evidently endemic.

Then you stipulate they simply evolved through natural process, eh?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Jun, 2006 02:17 pm
Yeah--how else? I would think all three have been with us a very long time but maybe with different labels.

Education is a process which seeks to minimise them and it doesn't often work.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 2 Jun, 2006 02:49 pm
spendius wrote:
But then again-if irresponsibilty and disingenuousness are eradicated do you have schools at all? You would have no teachers surely. Or are teachers expected to be non-human?


Those are questions that may never be answered in our lifetime. Have you ever wondered if the pope is actually a virgin?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 2 Jun, 2006 03:36 pm
Not really wande. I don't give a sod either way. If I were betting on it I would have a decent poke at evens that he isn't a virgin.

I don't think it an issue. If you want to define celibacy in your particular way that's up to you. I suppose it gives you an angle on getting at the Pope and through him at the Christian/Faustian project.

I think I discovered the source of our differences in a pub discussion last night.

I'm an optimist. I have every confidence that the Christian /Faustian project will go at about 2-3% a year from now to who knows when. I think you lot are fundamentally pessimists. Most people are. Only Lola ever showed signs of true Faustianism on these threads. I haven't seen sight nor sound of it anywhere. Not the faith I mean.

Isn't somebody going to answer my question about a judge over-ruling an electorate in a solid ID district? Why are questions like that greeted with a stream of abusive assertions one of which is that I make no contribution to the debate which the stream of abusive assertions definitely doesn't do? There's silly and there's very fewking silly.

I also think that it is Europe, the home, which will carry it through. We are not in gear yet and I won't live to see the day we get in gear.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 3 Jun, 2006 07:42 am
fm-wrote

Quote:
I dont find spendi humorous at all. Hes pitiable.I feel that hes contrived a keyboard personality that drips with pomposity "for no apparent reason". Hes certainly not a lone voice fighting for intellectual honesty. He just seems to enjoy the sport of negating almost everything anyone says, whether he understands the issues or not. Hes a definate misogynistic misanthrope, hes most often poorly informed,he rarely brings anything to the debate, his opinions are frequently pointless, hes often sunk to lying his way out of a debate corner, and his self proclaimed wit falls flat. Other than that ...


I thought it worth a reprise. There's nothing like a good guffawing grinch to get the day underway. Clears all the phlegm from the effects of that smokey atmosphere in the pub last night. It's a pity it was left dribbling its life away with three dying drops of the dead man's didactic dirge like the author had run the gamut of his badinage repetoire or had experienced flat battery syndrome (FBS).


Did you not think my endemic joke was witty fm? I did. timber fell right in.
On reflection I thought I hit the phrasing spot on.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 3 Jun, 2006 05:52 pm
Im not sure what the hell youre referring to there spendi. Im listening to Prairie Home Companion.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 3 Jun, 2006 05:59 pm
Do you not need prescription medicines for that?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 3 Jun, 2006 08:16 pm
No, only a note from a Presbyter
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 07:44 am
Isn't that somebody who always does what Daddy says to do?
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BillyFalcon
 
  1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 09:11 pm
Criticism of the whole.
Big words, alone, do not a sapient person make. Nor do small, obscure words such as "sapient." To say one is sagacious, learned, prudent, erudite, is to over shoot the target. Consider the following story.


The last time I was in England, it happened to be the week of the sixtieth
birthday of playwright Tom Stoppard. He was interviewed by a BBC reporter who asked him to make a pithy statement about several countries. When he was asked to comment on the United States. He paused for a moment and said "They don't have an irony button on their machine."

I think that's about as brief, clear, and accurate as can be.
That's wise.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 06:18 am
Hardly Billy when it's so glaringly obvious.

One thing that's not so obvious is that they hardly seem aware that one dollar is the same as every other dollar. They ejaculate their subjectivity into the equation and invariably with unfounded assertions as might well be expected.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:22 am
Quote:
Judge in Dover case still fighting
(By Amy Worden, Philadelphia Inquirer, June 5, 2006)

HARRISBURG - U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III could have taken the safe route and retreated to the privacy of the courthouse after issuing his landmark ruling in December against intelligent design. Most judges are loath to go public about their cases at all, let alone respond to their critics.

But Jones - angered by accusations that he had betrayed the conservative cause with his ruling, and disturbed by the growing number of politically motivated attacks on judges in general - came out from his chambers swinging.

"I didn't check my First Amendment rights at the door when I became a judge," Jones said in a recent interview.

While keeping his normal caseload, Jones has embarked on a low-key crusade to educate the public about the importance of judicial independence. He has been flooded with more invitations than he can accept to speak to organizations and schools about issues that arose from the Dover, Pa., case on intelligent design and other emotionally charged cases.

Edward Madeira, a senior partner with Pepper Hamilton L.L.P., which represented Dover plaintiffs, described Jones as the perfect ambassador for a more visible judiciary.

"God bless him," said Madeira, who serves with Jones on a state panel on judicial independence. "He came out of the case with a real concern about the lack of understanding of the role of the judiciary and has become a person who spends time very effectively talking about it."

So far, Jones has delivered his message on at least 10 occasions, speaking to high schools and colleges, mostly in Pennsylvania. In February, he addressed the national conference of the Anti-Defamation League in Florida.

Jones had anticipated he would be targeted by hard-line conservatives after concluding that teaching intelligent design in public schools as an alternative to evolution was unconstitutional.

But he was surprised by how ignorant some of his critics were, in his view, about the Constitution and the separation of powers among the three branches of government.

Jones said he had no agenda regarding intelligent design but, rather, was taking advantage of the worldwide interest in the case to talk about constitutional issues important to him.

"I've found a message that resonates," he said. "It's a bit of a civics lesson, but it's a point that needs to be made: that judges don't act according to bias or political agenda."

One particularly strident commentary piece by conservative columnist Phyllis Schlafly, published a week after the ruling, really set Jones off.

Schlafly wrote that Jones, a career Republican appointed to the federal bench by President Bush in 2002, wouldn't be a judge if not for the "millions of evangelical Christians" who supported Bush in 2000. His ruling, she wrote, "stuck the knife in the backs of those who brought him to the dance in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District."

"The implication was that I should throw one for the home team," Jones said. "There were people who said during trial they could not accept, and did not anticipate, that a Republican judge appointed by a Republican president could do anything other than rule in the favor of the defendants."

Jones, 50, who is based in Williamsport, Pa., was finishing his second year on the court when he was assigned the Dover case.

Looking beyond that trial now, Jones said he was concerned about the growing number of politically motivated threats against judges, including himself, that demonstrate "a lack of respect and a lack of understanding of what we do."

He rattled off a string of incidents that occurred last year: The murder of a Chicago judge's husband and mother by a disgruntled litigant. The oral attacks - led by congressional Republicans - against a Florida judge who ruled that Terri Schiavo could be removed from her feeding tube. Conservative commentator Ann Coulter's suggestion that U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens should be given "rat poison" for voting to uphold Roe v. Wade. (Coulter later added it was only a joke.)

And an e-mail death threat that Jones received shortly after the Dover ruling caused him to seek U.S. Marshal's Service protection for the first time.

"Judges are really unnerved by this," Jones said. "My wife couldn't walk the dog without a marshal walking beside her in the days after case was decided."

He wants to remind audiences, he said, that the judicial branch was not designed to react to public opinion as the executive and legislative branches were.

"If a poll shows a majority of Americans think we should teach creationism in schools, we should just go with the flow?" he asked. "There's this messy thing called the Constitution we have to deal with."
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:34 am
Great article, Wandel, thanks. It is good to see that there are still people on the bench who see their loyalty as being to the Constitution, to the law, and to findings of law and fact, and not to partisan interest groups. The emergence of a group of conservatives opposed to "intelligent design" seems more evidence that one cannot label politically conservative people as mindless, lock-step adherents to a political agenda cobbled together to appeal to fringe groups.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:43 am
Setanta wrote:
The emergence of a group of conservatives opposed to "intelligent design" seems more evidence that one cannot label politically conservative people as mindless, lock-step adherents to a political agenda cobbled together to appeal to fringe groups.


I agree. The new "Conservatives Against Intelligent Design" shows common sense. I have always believed that most parents (regardless of political affiliation) simply want science to be taught as science and religion to be taught as religion.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:48 am
Agreed. The "intelligent design" dodge was cobbled together after the 1987 decision by the Supremes. Stealth candidates with an unacknowledged hidden religious agenda first appeared in California in the early 1990s. But the combination of a stealth slate with an ID agenda does not appear until Dover, and i submit that it was attempted because of a perception (false) that the Shrub's successful appeal to a conservative, fundamentalist political base was evidence that all conservatives were onside with the more extreme portions of the conservative religious agenda. A great many factors quite outside this controversy, however, have poked holes in the notion that all conservatives will automatically support the agenda of all other conservatives. This is yet another nail in the coffin of the bankrupt notion that there is a universal, conservative agenda, in which it was erroneously assumed that creationism was a vital part.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:48 am
That article should also go far to address sendis comment about "doesnt a judge owe allegiance to a govt body duly elected'? answer, no, just like the Hebrew National hot dog man. Jones answers to a higher power, the Constitution.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:52 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Jones said he had no agenda regarding intelligent design but, rather, was taking advantage of the worldwide interest in the case to talk about constitutional issues important to him.


That seems a most peculiar thing to say. It suggests that JJ saw the Dover courtroom as a stage on which to strut his stuff.

Is that not a political agenda? Which might be why he tried to deny it with-

Quote:
"I've found a message that resonates," he said. "It's a bit of a civics lesson, but it's a point that needs to be made: that judges don't act according to bias or political agenda."


Which adds to his difficulties as far as I can tell.

Of course judges act according to bias and political agenda. They are appointed for that very purpose surely?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 08:56 am
Aw set, youve forgotten the really nasty battle that arose in the Pa Licensing and Education Department in 2001 . The IDers attempted to twist the entire "standards testing" procedure on its head by challenging the state constittutions authority by introducing "testability of Evolution and ID as a criteria for insertion into curricula".
Hearings ensued and , Im afraid that this hearing process, more than anything, directly led to Dover because it gave the right to local schoolboards to input curricula in the old fashioned manner to "not water down the states requirements but to enhance it by adition of other relevant course materials" .

PA has had a very trying 18 years since Phil Johnsons "Darwin on Trial". I must say however, we can stand as a lesson that this entire new generation of Creationist Luddites dont have to be given any consideration except in the context of their first amendment rights.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 09:00 am
That doesn't alter my point, though, FM--which is that creationists have been emboldened by the belief that the election of the current admininstration signalled a willingness on the part of the public to go along with their agenda.
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