wande quoted-
Quote:Because ecological, biochemical, genetic, and paleontological finds have failed to provide support for any competing theory; and because current alternative theories are fundamentally not scientific, it would be irresponsible and disingenuous to teach any theory other than Darwinian evolution in science courses in our nation's public schools.
I suppose you'll be surprised to learn that I agree with that assuming it refers to origins which it doesn't say it does.
But then again-if irresponsibilty and disingenuousness are eradicated do you have schools at all? You would have no teachers surely. Or are teachers expected to be non-human?
spendius wrote:timber wrote-
Quote:spendi - ineed - however could we have gotten on sans Balderdash, Pablum, and Trivial Pursuit?
You have never needed to. They are self evidently endemic.
Then you stipulate they simply evolved through natural process, eh?
Yeah--how else? I would think all three have been with us a very long time but maybe with different labels.
Education is a process which seeks to minimise them and it doesn't often work.
spendius wrote:But then again-if irresponsibilty and disingenuousness are eradicated do you have schools at all? You would have no teachers surely. Or are teachers expected to be non-human?
Those are questions that may never be answered in our lifetime. Have you ever wondered if the pope is actually a virgin?
Not really wande. I don't give a sod either way. If I were betting on it I would have a decent poke at evens that he isn't a virgin.
I don't think it an issue. If you want to define celibacy in your particular way that's up to you. I suppose it gives you an angle on getting at the Pope and through him at the Christian/Faustian project.
I think I discovered the source of our differences in a pub discussion last night.
I'm an optimist. I have every confidence that the Christian /Faustian project will go at about 2-3% a year from now to who knows when. I think you lot are fundamentally pessimists. Most people are. Only Lola ever showed signs of true Faustianism on these threads. I haven't seen sight nor sound of it anywhere. Not the faith I mean.
Isn't somebody going to answer my question about a judge over-ruling an electorate in a solid ID district? Why are questions like that greeted with a stream of abusive assertions one of which is that I make no contribution to the debate which the stream of abusive assertions definitely doesn't do? There's silly and there's very fewking silly.
I also think that it is Europe, the home, which will carry it through. We are not in gear yet and I won't live to see the day we get in gear.
fm-wrote
Quote:I dont find spendi humorous at all. Hes pitiable.I feel that hes contrived a keyboard personality that drips with pomposity "for no apparent reason". Hes certainly not a lone voice fighting for intellectual honesty. He just seems to enjoy the sport of negating almost everything anyone says, whether he understands the issues or not. Hes a definate misogynistic misanthrope, hes most often poorly informed,he rarely brings anything to the debate, his opinions are frequently pointless, hes often sunk to lying his way out of a debate corner, and his self proclaimed wit falls flat. Other than that ...
I thought it worth a reprise. There's nothing like a good guffawing grinch to get the day underway. Clears all the phlegm from the effects of that smokey atmosphere in the pub last night. It's a pity it was left dribbling its life away with three dying drops of the dead man's didactic dirge like the author had run the gamut of his badinage repetoire or had experienced flat battery syndrome (FBS).
Did you not think my endemic joke was witty fm? I did. timber fell right in.
On reflection I thought I hit the phrasing spot on.
Im not sure what the hell youre referring to there spendi. Im listening to Prairie Home Companion.
Do you not need prescription medicines for that?
No, only a note from a Presbyter
Isn't that somebody who always does what Daddy says to do?
Criticism of the whole.
Big words, alone, do not a sapient person make. Nor do small, obscure words such as "sapient." To say one is sagacious, learned, prudent, erudite, is to over shoot the target. Consider the following story.
The last time I was in England, it happened to be the week of the sixtieth
birthday of playwright Tom Stoppard. He was interviewed by a BBC reporter who asked him to make a pithy statement about several countries. When he was asked to comment on the United States. He paused for a moment and said "They don't have an irony button on their machine."
I think that's about as brief, clear, and accurate as can be.
That's wise.
Hardly Billy when it's so glaringly obvious.
One thing that's not so obvious is that they hardly seem aware that one dollar is the same as every other dollar. They ejaculate their subjectivity into the equation and invariably with unfounded assertions as might well be expected.
Great article, Wandel, thanks. It is good to see that there are still people on the bench who see their loyalty as being to the Constitution, to the law, and to findings of law and fact, and not to partisan interest groups. The emergence of a group of conservatives opposed to "intelligent design" seems more evidence that one cannot label politically conservative people as mindless, lock-step adherents to a political agenda cobbled together to appeal to fringe groups.
Setanta wrote: The emergence of a group of conservatives opposed to "intelligent design" seems more evidence that one cannot label politically conservative people as mindless, lock-step adherents to a political agenda cobbled together to appeal to fringe groups.
I agree. The new "Conservatives Against Intelligent Design" shows common sense. I have always believed that most parents (regardless of political affiliation) simply want science to be taught as science and religion to be taught as religion.
Agreed. The "intelligent design" dodge was cobbled together after the 1987 decision by the Supremes. Stealth candidates with an unacknowledged hidden religious agenda first appeared in California in the early 1990s. But the combination of a stealth slate with an ID agenda does not appear until Dover, and i submit that it was attempted because of a perception (false) that the Shrub's successful appeal to a conservative, fundamentalist political base was evidence that all conservatives were onside with the more extreme portions of the conservative religious agenda. A great many factors quite outside this controversy, however, have poked holes in the notion that all conservatives will automatically support the agenda of all other conservatives. This is yet another nail in the coffin of the bankrupt notion that there is a universal, conservative agenda, in which it was erroneously assumed that creationism was a vital part.
That article should also go far to address sendis comment about "doesnt a judge owe allegiance to a govt body duly elected'? answer, no, just like the Hebrew National hot dog man. Jones answers to a higher power, the Constitution.
wande quoted-
Quote:Jones said he had no agenda regarding intelligent design but, rather, was taking advantage of the worldwide interest in the case to talk about constitutional issues important to him.
That seems a most peculiar thing to say. It suggests that JJ saw the Dover courtroom as a stage on which to strut his stuff.
Is that not a political agenda? Which might be why he tried to deny it with-
Quote:"I've found a message that resonates," he said. "It's a bit of a civics lesson, but it's a point that needs to be made: that judges don't act according to bias or political agenda."
Which adds to his difficulties as far as I can tell.
Of course judges act according to bias and political agenda. They are appointed for that very purpose surely?
Aw set, youve forgotten the really nasty battle that arose in the Pa Licensing and Education Department in 2001 . The IDers attempted to twist the entire "standards testing" procedure on its head by challenging the state constittutions authority by introducing "testability of Evolution and ID as a criteria for insertion into curricula".
Hearings ensued and , Im afraid that this hearing process, more than anything, directly led to Dover because it gave the right to local schoolboards to input curricula in the old fashioned manner to "not water down the states requirements but to enhance it by adition of other relevant course materials" .
PA has had a very trying 18 years since Phil Johnsons "Darwin on Trial". I must say however, we can stand as a lesson that this entire new generation of Creationist Luddites dont have to be given any consideration except in the context of their first amendment rights.
That doesn't alter my point, though, FM--which is that creationists have been emboldened by the belief that the election of the current admininstration signalled a willingness on the part of the public to go along with their agenda.