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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 02:42 pm
Religious bias -- ignoring all the factual discoveries that support evolution as truth, claiming there are "too many holes." When those holes have gradually filled up to leave no doubt, they try to cleverly distort the facts, shaping them around beliefs that have no facts to support them.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 03:18 pm
Quote:
Science Teachers Confront Intelligent Design
(By Gloria Hillard, Voice of America News, May 24, 2006)

In classrooms across the country, science teachers are increasingly finding themselves on the front lines of the decades-long evolution wars, pitting accepted scientific explanations against biblical-based challengers.

So when some 15,000 science teachers convened for their annual conference recently, many attended workshops designed to help them deal with the issue.

Amid all the lab gear and panel discussions at last month's annual National Science Teachers Association conference, one of the largest draws was a book signing.

Brown University Professor Ken Miller was autographing copies of the biology textbook he wrote with co-author Joe Levine. Known as 'the dragonfly book' from its iridescent cover photo, it's a popular classroom text. It was also the book at the center of a recent landmark 'evolution versus intelligent design' trial in Dover, a small Pennsylvania town. Miller explains, "Our book was the one the Dover teachers chose and the board of education in Dover objected to because it had too much evolution in it."

In the end, a federal judge ruled that 'intelligent design' could not be taught in science classes. Intelligent design holds that natural processes alone cannot explain the organization of life forms and the universe itself, and thus must be the work of a higher force. Advocates leave open the question of whether that force is God.

The Dover decision was a clear victory for Darwinism, but despite that legal precedent, Miller says the challenges to teaching evolution are ongoing. "I think this is an issue everywhere in the country."

And that's one reason science teachers from everywhere in the country were seeking answers to how to deal with the increasingly controversial issue. Patrick Grady admits, "That's usually the number one question students ask: ''What are you going to cover in evolution?'"

Grady is a biology teacher in Orange County California, where there's a large conservative Christian population. Many of those parents start off teaching their children at home, then switch to public high schools, where the kids are exposed to new ideas that challenge what they learned at home and in church. "As soon as you bring up the topic of evolution," Grady says, "they want to put a barrier or wall and they don't want to listen."

Dozens of teachers wanted to listen to Ken Miller. It was standing room only at his workshop, Darwin Denied: Teaching Evolution in a Climate of Controversy. Miller started with a brief history lesson and then set the stage for what they were up against today. Teachers took out their notebooks as he flashed popular anti-evolution websites on a large screen.

"This is from the 'Answers in Genesis' website," he told them. "It's probably the best compendium of anti-evolution information and propaganda that you will find." Miller also gave the teachers advice in how to respond to their students' questions, especially those that challenge the very basics of evolution -- from human origins to missing-link fossils.

Julie Bookman, a high school biology teacher for 15 years, found that information to be especially useful. "I do have students that ask those tough questions. They don't object to being taught natural selection and evolution, but they do ask the tough questions, so any help I can get with that is good."

For another teacher attending the workshop, it was the most basic theological questions from her young students that seemed the most problematic. "I lose them if I can't give them an answer about Adam and Eve," she laments, "I've just lost them and I've lost them for the next 3 weeks of my trying to get them to have an open mind about it."

Although his was clearly a like-minded audience, at the end of the day one of the most important concepts biology textbook author Ken Miller wanted teachers to take home with them was to be respectful of the religious belief of students. "I think religion and science, properly understood, complement each other by giving a complete worldview," he says. "Now you can be a great scientist without being a person of faith by acknowledging that both faith and reason are gifts from God and if properly understood, they ought not to be in conflict."

Evolution disturbs people, Miller says, because it concerns where we come from … and who we are today, and he expects it to continue to be a contentious issue at the intersection of science, religion and politics.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 03:28 pm
Yes LW but if you define "religious bias" your way and then attack what you have described it could look like you were defining it that way simply in order to have something easy to attack.

Your picking out your own target and then claiming credit for hitting it because you think nobody can see that that's what you're doing.

I can understand an attack on religious bias in general but only if the attacker can explain the consequences of getting rid of it. If he can't he's offering us a leap in the dark.

Even getting rid of what you describe might have serious consequences and that is but a smidgin of religious bias generally.

Religious bias doesn't begin and end at -

Quote:
ignoring all the factual discoveries that support evolution as truth,
.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 04:04 pm
spendi wrote (with a straight face, I image):
I can understand an attack on religious bias in general but only if the attacker can explain the consequences of getting rid of it. If he can't he's offering us a leap in the dark.


A good defesne is a good offense; but to off-handedly claim that religious bias isn't the primary "leap in the dark," I'm not sure what is! Nice try, spendi, but your spinning your wheels.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 04:10 pm
If he keeps chasing his tail, he may one day eventually catch it and find out that it's only a tail.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 04:40 pm
spendius wrote:
Hi Chum-

Quote:
There is no reason whatsoever why the "the regulation of human life" imputes a belief in zombies and fairies and ghosts and immortally and miracles etc.
That's much to superficial I'm afraid. I know it's true in the abstract and in intellectual word play in ivory towers. I'm in the street with the great unwashed. As a sparky I thought you might be. They like zombies and fairies and the whole bag of tricks that goes along with them. It calms them and comforts them and keeps them on the rails and their noses to the grindstone. And they like that too. They might not admit it but just take it away and see what happens.

I think of "religious censorship" as opposed to other forms,as a euphemism.

As I take my evening bath courtesy of the workers and warriors to whom I owe my deepest gratitude you might ponder that.

Have you skived off early tonight. Top rates for sparkies once the weekend is underway you know. Only the desperate call on weekends. The sitting ducks.
Most of the sparky's I know have no use for religion and think it's just plain silly. I exhume you read the report collating lack of religiosity to a better quality of life on a country over country basis?

When "religious censorship" is imposed as Creationism/ID and is attempted to be taught as science in public schools, the term "religious censorship" goes far beyond your view of it being a "euphemism".

The criminalization of prostitution is a good example of modern religious censorship. The criminalization of public nudity is a good example of modern religious censorship.

Magnetic fields strengthen brain functions and thus sparkys are rather immune to fairy tales donchaknow Very Happy
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 05:58 pm
Yes I know Chum.

And then they look like your avvie.

There was one in the pub tonight. She was all lit up. You could easy tell by watching her that she had the hot female monkey urge. She had one of those contraptions on which displayed about half of her tits from the side.And the armpits full bore, which were shaved. Her nipples were not to be seen but none of us leaners,whose glory days are a bit of a distant memory, were unaware of them. They were like chapel hatpegs. I wouldn't have said that her IQ was in the average range without my knowing her better but if I was betting on it I would give 4 to 1 that it was on first impressions.

I know why I like stupid women but I don't know why I like them as much as I do. In a shipwreck with me and one other survivor she would be so far in front of Thelma and Louise that without her I would rather be alone.
On Desert Island Crumpet I mean.

About 5ft 1", 10 stone,25 or so and what is considered plain and uncultured which is to say gorgeous putting it as mildly as I can.

She got me meditating about evolution and the censorship which I felt was the only thing holding her back.


Her four mates,who had come out in a more censored type of fashion,though not by all that much, did show signs of being embarrassed by the company they were keeping but that's enough about them.

And she was eating a bag of crisps all the time she was doing the Herod shuffle. And not very delicately either.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 26 May, 2006 07:54 pm
Funny Spendi!
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 06:35 am
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
A good defesne is a good offense; but to off-handedly claim that religious bias isn't the primary "leap in the dark," I'm not sure what is! Nice try, spendi, but your spinning your wheels.


Not at all.

There's a few thousand years of the evolution of Christianity during which the structures of life became adapted to belief systems being gradually refined by theologians. It was a gradual and tentative process comparable to inching along carefully in a thick mist and which resulted in the conquest of most of the earth. It was nothing like a leap in the dark.Every significant move was studied and debated and often fought over.

With all these structures in place, and one could see the effect of one of them on female modesty in my young lady in the pub sketch, it is a leap in the dark to throw them over in the space of a few years. If they are thrown over I'm quite sure my young lady would have performed her sinuous gyrations in a more up front manner.

But in such circumstances her friends would no doubt be emboldened to follow suit and after a few minutes of that sort of thing we would all become blase about it and it would cease to create interest and feminine mystique would evaporate.

Those sections of the community who seek to destroy feminine mystique, and I hardly think you will need me to say who they are, would obviously give support to the destruction of the process which created it and you would be left with nothing but the gratification of animal urges. As it is economically useful to apply mechanical methods to such base satisfactions one could easily envisage the destruction of marriage and courtship and, in the end, love itself and with that art.

I think confusion arises because we are in transition and the structures of the past live alongside portents of the future so, in a sense, we can have the best of both worlds for now. I think attacks on Christianity are thus a self indulgence which refuses to look at the situation which would come about if those attacks were successful and the "religious censorship" which restrained my young lady from going beyond certain limits was withdrawn.

One would certainly be in great difficulty attempting to restrain her with the scientific method. She was already exposing a proportion of her flesh a long way in advance of what a devout Islamic lady might do and strictures founded upon the scientific method are hardly likely to be sufficient, logically,to inhibit her pushing the envelope futher which she self-evidently had a mind to do.

At one point, to the cheers of the audience, she got astride a young seated male whose friend then proceeded to imitate a dog on the seat of her jeans which suggests a familiarity with the "double push" which those of you who have seen European TV will know the details of.

In the interests of research for the benefit of this thread I made a few enquiries and it turned out that all the ladies in the group were married and had children and were quite typical in every respect of those Mums one often sees collecting children from the school gates in their big cars.
They had been out since early evening celebrating something or other.

Of course,by the standards of the movers and shakers it was all quite respectable as one would expect in an ordinary local pub.

In my experience, which is quite eclectic, I have always found this type of lady to be somewhat disappointing in action whereas those ladies who evince a high order of feminine mystique and reticence generally shag like rattlesnakes once persuaded. (See Stendahl)

This may explain why these ladies were unaccompanied whereas those ladies in the pub who turned their back on the display were in the company of an attentive chap.

"All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants too
Outside in the distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to hoooooooooooowlllll!!! (Bob used to go down on one knee on that last word but now he's 65 he has to use another trick; a baleful glare.)

No!c.i. Your's is the leap in the dark.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 06:43 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Although his was clearly a like-minded audience, at the end of the day one of the most important concepts biology textbook author Ken Miller wanted teachers to take home with them was to be respectful of the religious belief of students. "I think religion and science, properly understood, complement each other by giving a complete worldview," he says. "Now you can be a great scientist without being a person of faith by acknowledging that both faith and reason are gifts from God and if properly understood, they ought not to be in conflict."
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 06:50 am
I like that quote also, spendi. My only concern on the ID issue is that matters of faith be kept separate from matters of science.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 06:54 am
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
Chinese food became all the rage.


Is there another explanation of this which is less discreditable than the Veblenesque one?

On shrimps-

Is it a myth that one has to consume the excretory apparatuas and its contents when one eats a shrimp and is it true that the most flavoursome shrimps and prawns are those that fatten up near to sewage outflows from large connurbations?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 09:24 am
Quote Spendi: "There's a few thousand years of the evolution of Christianity during which the structures of life became adapted to belief systems being gradually refined by theologians."

If it took a few thousand years to "refine" and "adapt" belief systems, will it take another thousand or so years for it to become viable? I think their "refining" and "adapting" is an increase of pandering to a public which is increasingly not buying their product. They've not been know to use the soft sale, but more often the hard sale, like if you don't subscribe to Christianity, you will go to hell. They talk what they believe is good sales rap but is it effective? Only to the ignorant.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 10:20 am
LW wrote-

Quote:
If it took a few thousand years to "refine" and "adapt" belief systems, will it take another thousand or so years for it to become viable?


Well- viable is not only a biological word but might also be a relative term.

So I think we are pretty viable as things stand and we steadily improve and so long as we don't go nuts we will remain viable.

A species is said to be viable irrespective of whether it is sick to the back teeth or not. Look at them wildebeasts on a hot day. They must be sick to the back teeth goodstyle but nobody says they are not viable.

I presume you might mean that the refining and adapting of our belief system(s) is not yet viable but that is a matter of opinion. I think it's about right and our viability is apparent for all to see.

And the belief system(s) of ours is a major factor is causing this very happy situation to come about. And so also is science. The difficulty might be that the contribution of the belief system(s) is so mysterious that it is very difficult to explain (stop laughing at the back) whereas the contribution of science is very easy to explain as you will see if you watch a Discovery Channel programme about the Big Bang or notice the technology in a beer can pull ring opener. It used to be a pain in the arse looking for the bloody bottle opener.

It is this ease which is attractive. Trying to explain the contribution of our belief system(s) is a task for an artist. And quite a difficult task too.

I certainly don't think there's any chance of any of us going to hell. One only need read Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man to disabuse oneself of that notion. Written by a consumate artist. He married a lady from the wrong side of the tracks called Barnacle so nobody could mistake his general position.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 11:41 am
The natural selection analogy is more apt for scientific hypotheses than for religion. Useful hypotheses survive while inferior hypotheses are eliminated.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 01:10 pm
Once again wande you are thinking of religion as if it isn't related to anything whereas it is so intimately related to the ways of life it promotes that they are in effect the same thing and it is these that natural selection apply to.

If you could try describing the ways of life an exclusively scientific approach would produce, which is fairly easy to do because the process is already underway and the signs are visible, you would provide us with an opportunity to compare them to the ways of life we would be leaving behind.

Quote:
Useful hypotheses survive while inferior hypotheses are eliminated.


The conservative hypothesis is being tested against the progressive hypothesis in this debate. If the side you are on, which I don't think you actually are, survives then religion will be eliminated as I have constantly reminded you. By using "useful" I assume you now concede the importance of the social consequences an issue your side have singularly failed to address.

My posts about Footballer's Wives and the young lady last night were concerned to illuminate the trend which has accompanied the decline of religion. Trends don't stop unless stopped so one can only assume that anti-IDers seek to promote the trends described and, in our day any age, promotion usually leads to acceleration.

I tried to make the posts concerned entertaining so they might remain in the memory a little. I would like to see a scientific description of last night's trivial event as I'm sure it would be quite funny so long as I felt that the writer was using the jargon ironically.

If he wasn't it would be pathetic.



Certainly there was a lot going on from a scientific point of view just from the narrow view of the physiology of excitable cells never mind anything else.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 02:30 pm
Spendi, does it not strike you as rather funny to try and discuss reasonable considerations on a rational basis, within the confines of an untenable belief system such as what relious beliefs represent?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 03:31 pm
Chum-

I can well see that if what

Quote:
religious beliefs represent?


to you is

Quote:
untenable


and not to you reasonable and rational then you would automatically come to the conclusion you have. I suppose "funny" is one word that works. But there are others as you know if you read this thread.

In shifting religious beliefs from A to B one does have to take into account cultural lag as even Stalin did when he demurred at demolishing the churches rather than simply closing them.

As human knowledge began next to nothing was known about the forces, often fearsome, which impinged on people's lives. It is only natural that they would personify those forces. But the more that is known about these forces the more the personification becomes abstracted. Going from hearth gods and crop gods to Monotheism, is abstracting into the sky. Over time the abstraction becomes more and more refined as knowledge grows until here we are with an intelligent designer without form or characteristics.

To believe in no intelligent designer is religious because it is unprovable however probable. It is to assert that one knows something as a fact from the unknowable or, as Darwin often said, the unimaginable.

I must go to the pub. I'm gasping.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 03:46 pm
spendi, You're gasping because not enough air is getting to your brain. That pub is killing you!
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 27 May, 2006 05:13 pm
I know c.i.

Last night was enough to kill my last hopes that anti-IDers will be able to cope.

They remind me of the cans in the Chuck the Duster fairground attraction.
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