Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Since the Dept of Education has been created the Republicans have been trying to abolish it. They want private schools. Private schools can teach any religious junk they choose, such as ID.

Brainwash them when they're young and they more then likely will be following bleating sheep as adults.

Would you prefer to see everyone educated in public schools such as those in Washington DC?

George=To answer your question.As a means to circumvent elements of a comprehensive curriculum I would. The comparison to "bad examples" of the public school systemes is totally disengenuous. These kids in DC will still have to go somewhere and, unlike B Arbogasts academies in Texas, I dont see the citizens of DC stepping up to the plate to provide education for the poor.
The poor schools stand as a boil on the face of the advocates of private schools as much as on the face of the public school advocates. Private and parochial schools stand for an elitist class war that says , in effect, F**k all your little po kids, we can take our "special ones" out and inculcate them with our version of the truth, but in a manner where we dont have to deal with "those kinds"
Expectation and accountability is a lost art, I do agree on that. However, There are quite a few of the private academies and charter schools that have gone belly up by virtue of mismanagement and/or corruption. This "grand experiment" has yet to be fully evaluated by a dispassionate jury.

My choice of the D.C. public school system had 2 motivations: (1) the poster to whom I was replying cites his location as Washington D. C., and (2) the D.C. public school system epitomizes all the ills of public education in this country. It is headed by a School Board unmatched in its venality and incompetence. The D.C. school system has nearly the highest per capita budget (and cost) in the country, yet it has nearly the lowest achievement as measured in standard test scores. The head of the local Teacher's union was recently convicted of embezzeling several millions of dollars of Union funds. Eight years ago the Corps of Engineers was directed to take over maintenance of the schools after it was discovered that for the previous two decades virtually no serious maintenance was done in the many school facilities, despite maintenance expenditures far above the norms for big city schools. The system hadn't even begun to comply with 15 year old regulations for exposed asbestos! The school facilities were significantly upgraded and, two years ago the facilities were returned to the control of the School Board. Since then the graft and sweetheard contracts have resumed. School system costs still lead the country and school achievement is still in the toilet.

The problems you cite with respect to private schools are trivial in comparison. Moreover, unlike public schools, failing private schools go out of existence.

The problem with private schools is the cost. In Washington DC there are a lot of people who could never afford private schools, even with tax breaks. What's going to happen to the poor people of SC if they abolish public education? Do you think private schools will be free for them? Public education is better then no education. It may also be better then education that teaches a religious dogma unrelated to today's reality.

For example the idea that science is evil and is run by atheists will prevent a lot of potentially talented individuals from entering the science field. This could have terrible consequences for our country. Believing that we don't have to care for our environment because either God will take care of his own or we're facing the end times is unrealistic. A secular open-minded education is, I feel, a far better education then that which stresses religious dogma, intolerance and ignorance.

I feel like the Mugwumps live again. Remember , the public school systems in the US grew, partly as a response to Twain's "gilded age'. We are not too dissimilar now.
Weve turned our vocabulary upside down . Nowadays "elitists" means college profs , or entertainment figures or civil rights leaders, it no longer means the "robber barons" who built exploding fortunes on the backs of people and children who worked endless hours in drudge jobs with no futures.
I want us to focus on fixing whats broken in our schools rather than abandoning the concept of public education to turn our clocks back to a more ruthless time.
Im waaay beyond evolution or ID ism here. I see the rising class wars based on first strikes by the GOP in its continuing quest for social isolation of its "ruling class" and the marginalization of the rest.
What separates us from the "2nd Industrial Revolution " period is that we dont have any base from which to dig up an Industrial economy. We cant return people to the coal mines, the farms, and the hosiery mills . We need a sizable population of educated people. Were gonna have 1/2 BILLION people in the US before you and I check out george, and disbanding an institution like public education is just flat wrong. Where techy leadership will determine our place in line at the world table, we are doing everything ass backward, and rather than fixing our problems, we have a substantial percentage of the true "elites" that wish to turn everything back to the good old days where everyone had their place and , based upon lack of access, the leadership assured that people didnt ascend too high.

I am personally suspicious of people who use the "state of public ed" argument as an excuse to disband and finance a different path that is clearly based upon class distinction . As far as the ID issue, its only symptomatic of a greater evil.

Nice to see you're up and typing again with no problems, FM. How's the arm?

Anyway, FM makes a good point, especially when you consider the numbers actually going into scientific jobs after taking science degrees. Not very many, I can assure you that.

Me thinks george is over-simplifying the realities of our public school system; some of the best schools are UC Berkeley, UCLA, University of Texas, and the whole of the public university system that trains our professionals in this country. Many of them are producing the IBMs, Intels, AMDs, and Yahoos. Many of them work at NASA, biotechs, pharmaceuticals, Apple, HPs, and Fujitsu. Many of our hospitals are the best in the world, bar none, because many of the doctors, nurses, and others graduate from our public institutions.

Having said that, we still need to improve our schools, but who doesn't? Unfortunately, the federal government established mandates for Leave No Child Behind without the proper funding. Our schools are struggling, and many minorities, especially blacks and Hispanics are dropping out of high school.

I was a product of our public school system, and made a pretty good career in accounting. My wife and children are also products of the public school system, and they have done very well in their professions. I see many plusses of our public school system, unlike george.

That link says that there is no constitutional mandate for a federal DOE.

Are there any national or state level requirements for education?

Chum wrote-



Both questions have already been dealt with earlier. There are enough gramophones on here for me to start. Anybody really interested in the subject would have seen them. It's that lack of effort again.

Wolf wrote-



The existence of the debate is proof of the provocative nature of evolution teaching. That has also covered earlier.

Conjecture and speculation are eminently respectable scientific strategies.

rosborne wrote:
Are there any national or state level requirements for education?

I'm pretty positive there are state level requirements, because they're the ones that funds our schools. When george bush established NCLB, the federal government superseded state regulations on educational standards, and mandated testing of students while under-funding the mandate. Our schools immediately started to have funding problems, and many schools closed. The federal government should never interfere in our school system, because it takes away the authority of the local school boards that has the best interest of our children.

xingu wrote-



Another good example of lack of effort. "Brainwash" is used incorrectly.

History proves the assertion wrong. Most of the scientists of the past were well conditioned or indoctrinated in religious feeling.

I rather think you have also not read the thread which seems to have resulted in you not understanding the debate.

Earlier versions of "No Child Left Behind" attempted to mandate criticism of evolutionary theory. However, that provision did not make it into the final version.

Milf wrote-



Media in general is anti-ID for sound commercial and political reasons. If you are not aware of that you have not taken enough interest in the subject.

ros wrote-



Really!! You do lead a sheltered life.

PS, excellent points back on the other page CI.
Im cautiously optimistic that the "unfunded mandates" of Bush will also pass. Hes been successfull at showing how , one of his ilk, can run up more debt and budget shortfalls than any previous "tax and spend" liberal


Wolf, Ive gone for scans and theyve already painted a grid on my upper left arm. Im going to be operated on Tomorrow or Thurs (its a serious, but not too difficult procedure).
I take an aspirin a day for my heart and Ive shut that off aso I dont exacerbate the internal bleeding . However, typing with my left hand is like typing with a raw rack of lamb. I can see the bones of my fingers but I cannot feel the fingers connecting the keys. Weird but, after learning that its not a stroke, Im happy .

Wolf's post was the first I heard about your condition, farmerman. Hope you are okay!

fm, Are you familiar with the signs of a stroke? It's called "STR;" Smile, Talk, and Raise both hands. If the smile is crooked, the talk is slow or slurred, and one can't raise both hands, it's a sign of a stroke, and need to dial 911 immediately. If under doctors care before three hours on the onset of stroke, very little if no damage will result. Anything longer is a big risk, and damage will result.

Yipes famerman,
I am very sorry to hear of your problem. All the very best, I had no idea.