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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 02:40 pm
I suspect, spendi, I have studied far more of the history of war and conflict than have many, if not most, others, yourself not excluded. I might be wrong in that supposition, but for a fair while, such pursuit was among the job requirements of a particular employment in which I found myself, that apart from a lifelong fascination with history, archaeology, and anthropology in general.

I'll add I have some background and foundation in the study of the development of religion, and the history of its impact on society - going all the way back to prehistoric burial practices, talismanic bone sculptures, and cave paintings.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 03:20 pm
That's as maybe timber but you wrote this-

Quote:
return-to-medeival-thought


as if such a thing was an object.The period you have in mind was,say,400 years in length and all that time went by second by second as it does for us over the equivalent of about 6 lifetimes. I'll allow you meant European thought but Europe during those years was a mighty mixture which,for its success,had to be moulded into a military machine.It contained many different ways of life.

The phrase you used is static and thus confusing and it is seen in a static context.History is the record of its becoming as it proceeded.It does not lend itself to being encapsulated in a phrase however convenient that might be.

The sixties is a popular phrase which is also misleading and people generally know what is meant by "sixties thought" but do they? That isn't an object either to be returned to or departed from.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 04:41 pm
timberlandko wrote:
We're probably closer on this than you sense - my primary objection to ID-iocy, apart from its wholly absurd central premis, is its surreptitious approach to by force of government impose Fundamentalist Christianity on The Nation's public education system. At root, those behind the endeavor are no different than those who peretrate terror in the name of Islam; facism is fascism, under whatever banner, and is the most severe and poximate danger facing civilization today.


I generally agree with that and have little personal sympathy for the various forms pf Protestant fundamentalism, and in some cases obvious charlatinism that masquerade as Christianity today. I also have no sympathy whatever for attempts to insert biblical metaphors in science texts, either as an explanation or an alternate view. (We know beyond doubt from the geological record that the earth is billions of years old, not thousands as the Old Testasment states).

However i have equal antipathy for the more insidious secular religion that is becomiing more pervasive in our society every day. it is no less intolerant and no less doctrinaire than the former, although its doctrines are a good deal more fashionable among the politically correct today. This secular fundamentalism has declared war on all the spiritual values of our society, and uses the spectre of the rabid fundamentalists as a chariacature of all who oppose or even doubt its doctrinal tenants. It advocates the unalloyed teaching of evolution in the schools (OK by me so far) It also insists that it should have no grounding in the philosophical context in which science resides. (I object to thius and believe the conflict would quickly fizzle out if that were done.) That this should not be included in education - just on the intellectual merits alone - is absurd

timberlandko wrote:
I call to your attention the simple historic fact that throughout humankind's tenure on this planet, no cause been the occasion for and rationalization of more bloodshed, destruction, suffering, repression, and horror than The Will of God/the gods.


Well given that, due simply to the exponential; (so far) rise in world population, most of every category of humans who have ever existed are alive today (scientists, etc.), one must recognize the corallary that the exterminations and slaughter of innocent humans of recent years, themselves comprise the majority of all such victims. The fact is the 20th century was a particularly bloody one in terms of the human casualties to contending doctrines. More to the point, the doctrines under which the slaughter of humans was done by the utterly godless and secular Nazi race mongers and the Soviet and Chinese (and Cambodian) Communist "reformers of mankind" during this century have far eclipsed the accumulated slaughter of peoiple over centuries of religious strife. The modern secular "religions" are even bloodier than those that preceded them. Don't blame God for human intolerance.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 04:52 pm
Granted, George, that the 20th Century saw humankind outdo itself in the pursuit and practice of atrocity and horror. Granted as well that fascist and communist ideologies were the sparkplugs of the past century's engine of destruction.

Consider, however, in the matter of human inflicting misery upon human, the role Islamofascism has undertaken for itself over the past generation. This century is young, and has yet to recognize its icons.

And note too that I do not equate Islamofascism with Islam, though I remain disappointed in my anticipation of substantive Islamic Street reprobation toward and repudiation of Islamofascism.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 05:00 pm
George wrote-

Quote:
Well given that, due simply to the exponential; (so far) rise in world population,


And isn't that a more likely cause of war than the flag the various,localised, "rises" went at each other's throats over.

It is well known that the aboriginal population of Australia was constant for thousands of years and that war and bloodshed on a mass scale was unknown.

So,George,whence does this exponential rise in population arise from given that it must be something to do with shagging or eggs being fertilised if you prefer more scientific jargon.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 05:07 pm
timber wrote-

Quote:
Consider, however, in the matter of human inflicting misery upon human, the role Islamofascism has undertaken for itself over the past generation.


It may be something we could well do without but it is very small potatoes compared with Stalin and Hitler where they can't even agree on how many millions perished or had to relocate.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 05:57 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Granted, George, that the 20th Century saw humankind outdo itself in the pursuit and practice of atrocity and horror. Granted as well that fascist and communist ideologies were the sparkplugs of the past century's engine of destruction.

Consider, however, in the matter of human inflicting misery upon human, the role Islamofascism has undertaken for itself over the past generation. This century is young, and has yet to recognize its icons.

And note too that I do not equate Islamofascism with Islam, though I remain disappointed in my anticipation of substantive Islamic Street reprobation toward and repudiation of Islamofascism.


Humans have amply demonstrated their willingness to slaughter one another for a host of mostly self-serving religions, of which God is only one. The notion that religion is somehow the chief of these is and long has been demonstrably false throughout recorded history. The Greeks and persiuans weren't fighting over religion, nor were the Romans in their struggles with the Carthaginians, Parthians, Gauls, Germans, or later Goths. The bloody 30 years war in Europe was fought along essentially religious lines, however at that time religion was closely allied with secular power. The empires and nation states that both preceded and followed this war proved themselves far more bloody than their more religiously motivated cousins..

Islam is and long has been a special case in that it makes no distinction between religious and secular rule. Submission to Islam includes submission to rule by Islamic law and clerics. They view the world as divided between the dar al Islam and the dal al harb - the world of submission and the world of struggle - and that is how the religion expanded. In practice they have often (not always) been more tolerant than Christians, but their doctrine itself is intolerant. With Christianity the situation is reversed. A clear distinction between the world of God and of Caesar is built into Christian doctrine as is tolerance of other beliefs, though in practice both have been often ignored and violated . After three centuries of being kicked around and exploited by Europeans islam has reawakened with a major sense of injustice. This reawakening and the build-in intolerance will no doubt cause us a good deal of trouble in the years ahead.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 06:43 pm
I submit George, that lack of distinction between secular and religious authority, throughout history, from the Summerians onward, is very much the point. Even the Greeks and Romans held authority through the sufferance of their gods, and their was little if any distinction between fealty to religion - of some sort - and accepting the authority of the state. I will concede I over-narrowly ascribed what is religion-in-gnra's fault to just God/gods - it is the concept of divine right and guidance, however expressed or characterized - that leads folks to rally behind "We're better than them, they're a threat to our way of life or, "They undeservedly have control over what by rights should be ours ... we're not only entitled but obliged to take it for ourselves". Without "spiritual guidance" or "higher authority" of one sort or another, there wouldn't be much "Us or Them".
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 06:50 pm
I am just getting into Dan Dennetts new book "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" He asks some questions: Can we study the origin of religion using the Scientific Method? If yes, how would we do it? Not surprisingly he replies in the affirmative to the former and takes a heroic stab at the latter.

Do humans have a religion gene? Perhaps, but more likely religion is the resulting synthesis of evolutionary products arrived at by (surprise!) purely random processes formed by selection pressures like sight or conscinous. But, in the spirit of tolerance, insists this examination does not forego the existence of God. That seems fair.

JM
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 3 Apr, 2006 09:39 pm
What makes such a stab "heroic"?

Does he literally assert that belief in religion favors successful reproduction? Or instead does he suggest that an inclination to religion is a byproduct of other features that are themselves favorable to reproduction? What features for example?

How does he account for the irreligious? Did they evolve differently?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 08:00 am
UK UPDATE

Quote:
The evolution of clots
(Steve Jones, Telegraph Online, April 4, 2006)

Intelligent design, or ID, began as an attempt to promote creationism without breaking American laws that keep religion out of schools. In spite of the eloquent concern of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who feels that the idea demeans not science but faith, it is spreading in Britain.

I know that only too well, for I often speak to schools and nowadays, in almost every one, I come across creationists, sometimes on the staff. The notion turns on the claim that certain parts of the body are "irreducibly complex"; that - like a BMW - they will not work unless the important bits are already in place. How could they evolve from a structure that could not function because a crucial part is absent?

Darwin, as usual, got it right: part of an eye is better than no eye at all and any slight modification will improve matters until we get a reasonably effective organ. But he was writing in Victorian times, before biology became so complicated. Surely, we must now know of some structures so improbable that his plodding mechanism could never come up with them? If so, perhaps a new theory - even a new science - is needed.

The ID crew, to use Darwin's own phrase, "look at an organic being as a savage looks at a ship, as at something wholly beyond [their] comprehension". The first Hawaiians to cast eyes on Europeans were so astonished by their great vessels that they thought their builders to be gods. The ID argument is just the same. It is the logic of ignorance, idleness and incuriosity: I am very smart, even I do not understand this, so why bother to explain it except by bringing in God (if necessary under an alias)?

Scientists, unlike creationists, do not know everything, but as they learn more, every such claim has been rubbished. Evolution is not mocked but glorified by life's intricacy. ID is a bad idea, but has generated lots of good research, all of which shows how inane it is.

Queen Victoria, in an early tilt towards evolution, saw orangutans as "frightful, and painfully and disagreeably human". She herself had the misfortune to inherit a flaw in a body system much appealed to by the ID crew, for several of her descendants had hemophilia and bled freely after a cut.

The clotting machinery is an icon of just how complex life may be. Designers love it: for to staunch the flow needs a cascade of a dozen or more enzymes that work like a row of toppling dominoes. Two interacting pathways meet at a crucial junction point.

One is set off by a change in acidity after a cut, while the other acts when it picks up chemical cues from damaged cells. An injury sets off a chain reaction until the job is done and, if any step goes wrong, the whole system collapses. How could such a complicated machine evolve from simple beginnings? What use is part of a clot?

Much better, in fact, than no clot at all. Plenty of animals manage with just a few parts of the machinery and DNA shows that - like the eye - the rickety apparatus that stops us from bleeding was assembled from random bits that just happened to be hanging around.

Victoria once announced to her startled prime minister that there were three things she could not stand: flies, turtle soup and Tories. All play a part in the science of clotting. Conservative blood ran through royalty, while turtles and flies each tell part of how the cascade evolved.

Sea turtles split from our own line long ago. After a cut, their blood does clot, slowly, which is fine because their blood pressure is low. Victoria's descendants lacked a certain protein called Factor VIII. When turtle plasma is mixed with their deficient blood, a clot forms - proof that turtles make at least one of the proteins used in our own system.

Other patients with damage elsewhere in the mechanism are also helped. Many, though, gain nothing, for they have a fault in the second branch of the clotting cascade. In fact, turtles manage without that whole pathway - proof that part of a clotting system works perfectly.

As for Tories and turtles, so for flies. Swat one, moderately, and its blood scarcely clots, for it has only a very simple means of stopping leaks. In particular, flies lack fibrinogen, the protein that makes our own solid plug. They have another protein that looks much like it, but that does a different task, forming a solid lump around an invader.

At some time, it was hijacked to become part of our own body machine - and some human clotting proteins are still involved in immunity. Others, too, hold on to their previous jobs. One helps stop cancer cells from spreading, while Victoria's damaged gene descends from another that maintains the blood's iron balance. Yet another is related to an enzyme that cuts up food. The gene doubled up and the second copy took up a related task in the clotting cascade. Our plumbing is a complicated mess, but it works just as well as it needs to.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:08 pm
timber wrote-

Quote:
I suspect, spendi, I have studied far more of the history of war and conflict than have many, if not most, others, yourself not excluded.


I have been trying to think of a way of explaining the way I approach history from that which I suspect you do which doesn't take 200 pages or require you to wrestle with The Decline of the West.

If you can imagine approaching a country house on a still summer evening and gradually becoming aware that a beautiful sound is emerging from the open French windows which draws you forwards and there is inside as you get near enough to see a lady sat before an implement which you have neither seen nor heard of before and it becomes evident from observation that she is conjuring this sound from the ends of her fingers as she manipulates little black and white rectangles and she sees you and you say in astonishment-"what is that" and she says-"Mozart's 21st piano concerto."
Gez
Now one can compare that scene with someone getting all dressed up and going to a concert hall specifically to hear,say,Geza Anda play this piece in order to write an article in the paper about it.

Both experiences might seem similar but there is a profound difference. My view of history is very like the first and I suspect yours is more like the second.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:12 pm
Don't get dressed up much at all spendi - nor do I dress history in romantic togs. Both history and I mostly wear work clothes, particularly when theres a job to be done.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:14 pm
Precisely.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:18 pm
Some famous American said that he never goes anywhere which requires him to change his clothes.

I'm a bit like that although I make an exception for religious ceremonials which I feel duty bound to attend such as funerals.

By the way-there was nothing romantic in my description of the country house scene.Not a shred.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:26 pm
wande-

Mr Jones wrote to me once when I criticised him for an article he wrote about 10 years,maybe 15 years ago.I see he hasn't taken my advice yet but he was quite friendly.I used to read the Telegraphs until they got a little too feminised for my liking.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:28 pm
spendi wrote:
By the way-there was nothing romantic in my description of the country house scene.Not a shred.


I believe (there's that word :wink: ) I may be slowly coming to understand and appreciate where you're coming from spendi. Slowly, perhaps, but I think I begin to understand - prolly my problem.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:42 pm
SOUTH CAROLINA UPDATE

Quote:
New evolution proposal puts 'critical analysis' in all subjects
(Associated Press, April 4, 2006)

COLUMBIA, S.C. - A new tactic has emerged in the debate over how to teach evolution in high school biology classes.

A House education subcommittee on Monday narrowly approved an amended bill directing the State Board of Education to approve only textbooks that "emphasize critical thinking and analysis in each academic content."

The Education Oversight Committee and the state Board of Education, which both must concur on revised academic standards, have been at an impasse over the wording of evolution standards.

The EOC wants to add language requiring educators to teach students to "critically analyze" evolution. The state board has refused, rejecting the proposed wording last month, saying the language would weaken the state's science curriculum.

"This has nothing to do with intelligent design or creationism," said Rep. Bob Walker, R-Spartanburg. "It's a way to help young people to look at things more realistically."

Walker, chairman of the House K-12 education subcommittee, is a member of the EOC and led efforts, along with Sen. Mike Fair, R-Greenville, to incorporate "critical analysis" into the biology curriculum.

Rep. Ken Clark, R-Swansea, and Rep. Mike Anthony, D-Union, voted against the amended language Monday.

"By changing the law, are we trying to address a short-term issue with a long-term solution? What are the motivations behind it?" Clark asked. "I think it's pretty obvious, given all the talk about intelligent design."

Education department lobbyist Pierce McNair said it may not be practical to apply critical analysis to all subjects. "How can you critically analyze German, or algebra, or keyboarding, for that matter? The language of the bill may not fit the reality of the subject being taught," McNair said.


Because of an impasse regarding the teaching of evolution in South Carolina, a state commitee has now requested that all textbooks include "critical analysis". This really is a new tactic. The most ridiculous one I have seen yet Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:49 pm
timber-

It isn't really a problem in itself.It is an accident of circumstance on both sides. It's a question of letting things happen rather than forcing them to happen.

Have you read Spengler?It was pure accident that I did and now it is always within reach.Henry Miller wrote something that pointed me.I can't remember what pointed me at Miller but it was another accident I'm sure which was the result of an earlier accident.I'm the result of a f**cking accident myself.

I did all the discipline I have room for in the military.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 4 Apr, 2006 01:52 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
New evolution proposal puts 'critical analysis' in all subjects


They better not go too far or they might shut the schools down.
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