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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 07:54 am
Spendi must be dilerious with joy. This thred has stopped being about ID and is now , 100% all spendi. Its all about spendius thread.

Im so outta here
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 08:03 am
spendius wrote:
I have said nothing about nightmarish dystopias.Such ideas never enter my head.Nightmarish for who?You are making a personal value judgement.


You may have said nothing about it, but it is heavily implied from your general distaste of Evolution.

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Exactly. Now you know how I feel about your posts. They're incredibly presumptuous.


If you will show me where I will endevour to correct my crass error and apologise for it.

Right down below:

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You give too much credit to the power of Evolution over the human mind.


Evolution theory has power over social systems.It operates unhindered in anarchic situations and,for us,Christian theology is a veneer which mitigates some of its effects and those who seek to remove the veneer have to expect the effects.


Rather presumptious, don't you think? You give so much credit to Christian theology, even though you call it a veneer, and state that it is the only thing that stands in between us and all right Nazism. Furthermore, you presume that I wish to have Christian theology removed, yet I do not.

All I wish is that Evolution is taught in biological classes to the utmost, with teachers clearly stating that their lessons will only give them an incomplete view of the big picture of Evolution. I do not wish ID to be taught. I do not wish Creation to be taught. That is all.

Christian theology? Sure, you can teach it if you wish.

Ethics? Sure, you can teach it if you wish. But now that I think about it clearly, perhaps ethics itself should be taught in science, seeing as it is a major factor in scientific research.

However, Christian theology? No way. That goes clearly in religious education and has no bearing on this topic whatsoever.

Ethics, yes. Christian theology, no.

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I can make a scientific case that monogamy is a perversion but I'm not going to because I don't agree that "whether the choices are good or bad is beside the point." The choice between good or bad is the only point as far as I'm concerned.


So, what? I can make a scientific case that polygamy is a perversion.

Now that I think even more clearly than a few minutes ago, I realise that ethics mustn't be taught in the sole realm of science. It must be taught in a separate ethics class as ethics is needed in business as well. A separate ethics class, made compulsory, would be very good, but not in science.

As far as I can tell, you're concerned about the ethics. And certainly, ethics are needed. However, if that is your only concern, then Evolution has nothing to do with it. The problem isn't that Evolution is taught, but that ethics isn't taught.

Once again, from what I can read and understand of your post, your position is nothing to do with the teaching of science but to do with the teaching of ethics.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:01 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Im so outta here


Cheep cheep.Cheep cheep.

I don't think the assertion has validity.I'm prominent on the thread simply because I'm the only one who thinks that a bit of ID is not as dangerous as some scaremongers have pretended it is.That isn't my fault.

The assertion is just a tame excuse.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:09 am
farmerman wrote:
Spendi must be dilerious with joy. This thred has stopped being about ID and is now , 100% all spendi. Its all about spendius thread.

Im so outta here


First Setanta, then me, now you...
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:48 am
A bit of ID, eh? What does teaching ID, encourage, then, may I ask?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 11:27 am
ros wrote-

Quote:
First Setanta, then me, now you...


Mr Truman famously said-"If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen."

Aaw ros-it had hardly got warm.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 11:33 am
Wolf, Are you a masochist? LOL
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 12:23 pm
Wolf wrote-

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You give too much credit to the power of Evolution over the human mind.


Evolution theory has power over social systems.It operates unhindered in anarchic situations and,for us,Christian theology is a veneer which mitigates some of its effects and those who seek to remove the veneer have to expect the effects.


Rather presumptious, don't you think?


Have you ever heard the expression "Might is right"?

What ethics have you to oppose that with.And altruism is no good on its own.Those who think might is right will come to power.Altruism underpinned by an appeal to an imaginary other wordly authority is weak enough.Without that appeal what is it apart from easy going for the ruthless.Powerful,ambitious and ruthless people will laugh at altruism.And yoke its adherents.

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Ethics? Sure, you can teach it if you wish. But now that I think about it clearly, perhaps ethics itself should be taught in science, seeing as it is a major factor in scientific research.


Yes it is but the above applies to that as well.There would be no limits to what a ruthless leader would do with medical science.He would define good and evil if no groundswell of a religious authority existed.

Spiro Agnew once said-"If God didn't like what we do He wouldn't let us get away with it." Which is the Bradlaugh position I believe.He defied God to strike him dead on the spot for preaching atheism.

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So, what? I can make a scientific case that polygamy is a perversion.


Polygamy is the same as monogamy in this debate.The real alternative is promiscuity.The other two are institutionalised marriage forms.Serial monogamy is moving towards promiscuity.Polygamy never does as far as I'm aware.As the average length of a monogamous marriage gets shorter the closer we get to promiscuity.Germaine Greer was married for one day I seem to remember but she's a bit ahead of her time.And a university professor. There is biological evidence of a striking nature for promiscuity.

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ethics is needed in business as well.


Yes,but only by those being exploited by business to protect themselves.Business itself finds ethics anathema.See Robert Maxwell,Enron and price gouging in New Orleans.(Chosen from long list.)

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Once again, from what I can read and understand of your post, your position is nothing to do with the teaching of science but to do with the teaching of ethics.


I'll accept that providing there's no clash in the social field and that when there is the science is curtailed and subservient to the ethics.

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A bit of ID, eh? What does teaching ID, encourage, then, may I ask?


A chance at that curtailment.

You and I are British Wolf.We don't have a written constitution.ID is an American idea to try to get that curtailment's nose under the tent when the rigid constitution has kept it out.Some people don't like the direction society is moving in and see ID forms as a possibly check on it.They may well be too late.It has confused the principle issue I'm afraid which is the human benefit of an appeal to a superhuman authority which,to get the benefit,has to be believed in to some extent,if only in a vague residual sense,by the broad mass of the population and, at the least,avowed by the ruling elites.

Is that any better?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 12:30 pm
OKLAHOMA UPDATE

Quote:
Where Does Life Come From?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 01:28 pm
wandel, Interesting how they continue to disguise religion as anything but. People that support such drivel are trying every way they can to squeeze in religion by refuting it's not religion. They won't give up until they get their foot in the door.
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xingu
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 01:34 pm
I wonder if this would hold true for any science that supports evolution.

For example, geology. The textbook says a ceratin rock formation is 250 million years old.

No, no says the student. I disagree. It can be no older than 6,000 years.

If the student put 6,000 years on his test he can't be graded wrong. After all, he has the right to disgree with science if it conflicts with his religious beliefs.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 01:55 pm
Spot on xingu.

You would be victimising his religion if you marked his answer down.

That must be violating something in the Constitution.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 02:03 pm
Not only that, but that student's parent will being suing the school for marking him wrong on that answer.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 02:20 pm
xingu, spendi, and c.i.,

I think this is the part of the Oklahoma bill that you were just discussing:

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In addition to protecting the rights of teachers, the bill states that it would protect students' rights to hold an opinion on the origin of life that is in not in their textbooks.


A totally silly idea, in my opinion. As c.i. mentioned, students may have a legal excuse to answer incorrectly on science exams. Also, no matter how much legislators try to disguise their intent, the fact that they are singling out evolution makes their intent obvious. Shouldn't students also be allowed to have different opinions on gravity, heliocentrism, etcetera?
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 03:22 pm
wande-

I would suppose so if everybody has a right to practice their own religion and not be victimised for it.

But evolution is a special case because we ourselves are evolving but in two ways.We are evolving socially as well as individuals as organisms.
These two different processes are in conflict and particularly so in rich societies.

It is a question of which has priority when push comes to shove.Those who bet on science bet that we will evolve to our benefit and they may be right.But others are not so sure.They are the ones pulling on the handbrake as science races along the mountain roads with its foot to the boards.Some think that the costs and risks of science are getting to be too high for the smaller and smaller benefits it produces in daily life.
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xingu
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 03:35 pm
Since all major sciences support evolution (chemistry, physics, geology, genetics, biology, ect.) I suppose the creationist student could put any answer on an exam he wants as long as it is supported by Biblical mythology.

Another nice way to lose touch with reality.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 03:53 pm
Here is an old "spoof" news item from a humor website:

Quote:
Georgia University to Eliminate Geology Department
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 03:55 pm
Good un! LOL
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 04:10 pm
spendius wrote:
ros wrote-

Quote:
First Setanta, then me, now you...


Mr Truman famously said-"If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen."

Aaw ros-it had hardly got warm.


It wasn't too hot, it was too boring.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 29 Mar, 2006 04:21 pm
xingu wrote:
If the student put 6,000 years on his test he can't be graded wrong. After all, he has the right to disgree with science if it conflicts with his religious beliefs.


I always thought the intent of any test was to test the students knowledge of the subject material, not their agreement with it.

If I take a class in theology, I must pass a test on my knowledge of the material, not on my agreement with it.

But what happens if a parent doesn't even want their kids to be *exposed* to a particular idea. But that idea (scientific knowledge) happens to be part of the public education system (in the US).

I believe parents are required by law to educate thier kids, so they either have to home school them or private school them with whatever exposures they deem appropriate, or they have to endure *exposure* to standard science knowledge in public schools.

I'm not sure a case like this has ever happened (a poor family who refuses to permit exposure to certain ideas in public schoool).
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