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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 07:36 pm
spendi wrote:
"They have in common a reference to the supernatural but they differ in the kinds of ends pursued..."

You should know that my response was in reference to what you wrote above. That you wish to equate it to lunch and dinner is of no real revelation between superstition and religion. That "different ends are pursued" and the "difference between pride and humility" misses the point entirely.

You haven't offered anything that we can hang our hat on; just more mumbo-jumbo.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
spendi, Superstitions has nothing to do in the scientific sense. Superstititions are based on faith alone.


CI,

You just keep propounding the same error... Maybe someday you will really believe it...

Faith is measurable...

Ephesians 3:
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Comment:
Faith is measured by deeds.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:11 pm
Rex, When will you religionists ever learn that you can't use the bible to support the bible. Do you understand anything about logic?
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:12 pm
Faith is measured by behaviors.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:12 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Rex, When will you religionists ever learn that you can't use the bible to support the bible. Do you understand anything about logic?


We can use wisdom no matter where it comes from... Rolling Eyes
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:15 pm
Rex wrote:
We can use wisdom no matter where it comes from...


Hey, that's the best laugh I've had all day. I'll let somebody else respond to your wisdom.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Rex wrote:
We can use wisdom no matter where it comes from...


Hey, that's the best laugh I've had all day. I'll let somebody else respond to your wisdom.


That is the whole point is that people "respond" to "wisdom" and this behavior is measurable...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:23 pm
Are you talking about all the killings mandated through the church like the Inquisition? What kind of "wisdom" was that?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 08:24 pm
I'm pretty sure it's measurable, but "wisdom" doesn't come to mind in any shape or form.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's measurable, but "wisdom" doesn't come to mind in any shape or form.


If wisdom has depth it is most likely to have form and is observable and therefore measurable...
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:45 pm
RexRed wrote:
Faith is measured by deeds.

RexRed wrote:
Faith is measured by behaviors.


What's insanity measured by?
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littlek
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:53 pm
In the April 2006 editorial pages of SciAm, there's a funny editorial response to someone griping about a evolution article.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 09:56 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Faith is measured by deeds.

RexRed wrote:
Faith is measured by behaviors.


What's insanity measured by?


The very same thing, behavior, it is all part of the human condition.

2Ti 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Comment:
Now who would think to do a word search in the Bible for the words "sound mind"?
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RexRed
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:08 pm
I will also say Ros that I have learned more from the "psychology" in the Bible than the psychology (admittedly of college and therapists)... In fact I have found the psychology and philosophy of today's "psychologists" to be contrary to that of the Bible and antiquated. I have learned radically different things in the Bible that the psychological world has probably collectively never even considered.

For example I learned that the "heart" is not the physical organ in the chest area of the body But the human heart is the innermost part of the mind...

The physical heart only registers the effects of the thought placed in the mind. The physical heart in only a slave to what we by choice place in the center of our will...

This is the heart. And the Bible builds consistently upon that postulate. There are many more visual concepts of the mind that the Bible teaches the believer about.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 22 Mar, 2006 10:37 pm
RexRed wrote:
I will also say Ros that I have learned more from the "psychology" in the Bible than the psychology (admittedly of college and therapists)... In fact I have found the psychology and philosophy of today's "psychologists" to be contrary to that of the Bible and antiquated.

I find that unsurprising.

Quote:
I have learned radically different things in the Bible that the psychological world has probably collectively never even considered.
For example I learned that the "heart" is not the physical organ in the chest area of the body But the human heart is the innermost part of the mind...

The physical heart only registers the effects of the thought placed in the mind. The physical heart in only a slave to what we by choice place in the center of our will...

This is the heart. And the Bible builds consistently upon that postulate. There are many more visual concepts of the mind that the Bible teaches the believer about.

While I find your position relevant to the matter at dicussion unsurprising, I find your position to be in error in that the "psychological world" is cognizant of and routinely treats delusions such as that evidenced by your commentary.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 23 Mar, 2006 12:42 am
UK UPDATE

Quote:
Scots church leader joins row over teaching of creationism in schools
(STEPHEN MCGINTY, The Scotsman, March 22, 2006)

THE leader of the Scottish Episcopal Church said yesterday that creationism should not be taught in schools and that a "false battleground" was pitting science against faith.

The Most Rev Bruce Cameron was speaking out in support of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, who said creationism - the belief that the world was created in seven days, according to a literal interpretation of the Bible - should not be taught in British schools.

Mr Cameron told The Scotsman: "We should be working towards a partnership between faith and science, rather than presenting a false battleground between them. To contrast the first chapters in the Book of Genesis with scientific theory fails to recognise that both are seeking different questions and answers, and there is a danger that we confuse scientific theories with the purpose of Creation."

Creationism is already being taught in two city academies founded by Sir Peter Vardy, an evangelical Christian businessman, as well as in several other schools in England. It is not, as yet, taught in any schools in Scotland.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 23 Mar, 2006 05:09 am
timber wrote-

Quote:
spendi, you present not answers but responses which do not satisfy the query to which you are responding. Sophistry, rationalization, and equivocation, no matter how sincerely and nobly presented, do not constitute rebuttal.


The request you made in Post 1937378 (page 441) did not seek a rebuttal.It asked for a difference to be demonstrated between science and religion.

I offered you a very brief explanation of one aspect of the difference and it is a well known one.
Obviously,if you think the two words are synonyms there was no point in you asking for their meanings to be distinguished.

They do mean different things.If the point of your request was to get an admission that they mean the same thing you could only expect to get such an admission from people who don't know the differences I pointed out to you.

I will agree that the practice of religion with the intent of personal salvation is a selfish and private act and thus is a superstition under the terms I explained.

A nutritionist might ask what is the difference between breakfast and supper.Both involve the ingestion of nutrient and,using your methods of thinking,are the same thing.

The English language contains thousands of groups of words which are similar superficially but which can be distinguished from each other with some careful thought.Roget's Thesaurus provides a long list of them.One can use butter or margarine for a similar purpose as you might know but they are not the same thing.

I think the quote above suggests that you don't even understand your own posts and that you have got it so firmly fixed in your head that religion and superstition mean the same thing that you are unable to appreciate an attempt,over-simplified as it is,to show you the essential difference. The reason you have got it firmly fixed in your head is that it allows you to deploy your argument with little effort.That is what bigoted means.

A state of bigotry is not only defineable but has a function as well which is normally the self-serving one of saving effort and is therefore selfish and might then be classed as a superstition in its own right.You believe religion and superstition are the same,you chant the mantra,you shut your eyes to explanations of the difference and-lo and behold-like magic-they are the same.

To you.

But not to me and not to anyone else who has studied this matter but slightly.

And from this magic you hope to derive power and influence which is a manifestation of pride and might be seen as a black art.

Would we wish the kids to be organised by people who not only don't know the difference between religion and superstition but refuse to accept the obvious explanation of the difference when it is explained to them.

I rather think not at the level of the Supreme Court.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 23 Mar, 2006 09:36 am
Sorry 'both the confusion re "rebuttal", spendi - I phrase the challenge differently from time to time, essentially variations along the lines of "I submit that there is no difference ... " and "Demonstrate that there be no difference ... "

I'm sure you've seen both flavors.

Now, back to your claim to have satisfied the requirement - poppycock; I refer you to my reply immediate to your initial response. Sophistry, rationalization, and equivocation do not satisfy the requirement. Whether "wite magic" or "black magic", public or private, to whatever end, by whichever practitioner, they are the same artificial, stemming from nothing more concrete than preference-driven afoundational assumption; they are fear-avoidance mechanisms. That permutations of one may have fancy trappings and written traditions is of no consequence; liturgy, literature, pomp and circumstance are but accessories to mugwumpery. No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, in the end you've still got a pig.


I gather you infer I've not "studied this matter" ...
You wrote:
You believe religion and superstition are the same,you chant the mantra,you shut your eyes to explanations of the difference and-lo and behold-like magic-they are the same.

To you.

But not to me and not to anyone else who has studied this matter but slightly.

And from this magic you hope to derive power and influence which is a manifestation of pride and might be seen as a black art.


I submit it is the religionist's eyes which are closed, it is the religionists chanting mantras, it is religionists who believe in magic, a magic which grants them shelter from and ascendence over mundane reality. It is the religionist's pride, pride to the point of arrogance - and fear - which brings the religionist to imagine there is power and influence in magic and ritual.

And I submit I have studied far more of religion and religions than have most.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 23 Mar, 2006 09:53 am
My apologies first-

When I wrote-

Quote:
The request you made in Post 1937378 (page 441) did not seek a rebuttal.It asked for a difference to be demonstrated between science and religion.


I did of course mean the difference between superstition and religion.The difference between science and religion is more complicated.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 23 Mar, 2006 10:15 am
No harm, no foul, spendi - I knew what you meant. I saw no point laboring over a simple mis-type.
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