Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

Unless the observation is really ignorant; in which case it's far more efficient to just call it ignorant and not waste time trying to answer it.

In your case, I suspect that the quote is either irrelevant or irrational, not ignorant

wande wrote-



First what went on once-

In Downe,Kent is Down House where Mr Darwin lived and worked and wrote his famous books.He was an important local figure.The village school was run by a committee consisting of Darwin,Sir John Lubbock FRS,who owned a 3000 acre property in Downe,a retired banker,and the vicar.

Eighty urchins were pupils at the school;the better off families sent their children to private schools.

In 1871 a new vicar was appointed.He was the Revd George Sketchley Ffinden who believed in "architectural improvements,liturgical finesse,and the renewal of priestly authority".He had been ordained by Bishop Wilberforce in 1861 and had been domestic chaplain to Lord Carington.
He "ran with top Tories and ecclesiastical toffs.."

Ffinden,by some astute manoeuverings,"usurped control" of the school.

The Education Act of 1870 had introduced rates (local tax) support and government inspectors into schools but the committee in Downe remained independent.It still "insisted on a 'conscience clause,' which protected the children from Anglican indoctrination.

"Ffinden ended that."

He was chairman and treasurer of the committee and had "designs on the curriculum."

"In future Downe's eighty urchins would have lessons on the Thirty-nine Articles from the vicar."

After a brief struggle Darwin left the committee but later gave Ffinden a demonstration of the rank he could pull in high places (Downing Street) with his support for experiments on live animals and with that under his belt he subsequently ousted Ffinden from the committee and the 'conscience clause' was restored.

Quotes from Desmond & Moore.

It might be interesting to see if the plaintiffs in Dover and anti-IDers on here are supporters of experiments on live animals.It would seem from the above that consistent Darwinists would be.

I'll post later on the bit I know about modern conditions.

ros-

In what particular regard do you think-



is "ignorant" or "irrelevant" or "irrational"?-as an answer to the question that had been posed by,I think, wande.

I'll try and answer your question Wandel.

When the Labour government came to power in UK (1997) it set out on a radical programme to transform British society....something it knew could not be achieved in one term of government. In a nutshell the government were convinced that economic progress and equality of opportunity were not mutually exclusive. Whilst they did everything they could to convince the City and financial institutions that they would never repeat the mistakes of the high tax and spend policies of Labour in the past...they actually set about pumping huge amounts of money into state services particularly health and education. In fact one of Tony Blair's more memorable catch phrases was "Education, education education".

BUT the flip side to investment was reform. As we know public money thrown at large public institutions has a tendency to disappear often without trace. Reform in health care provision meant allowing private finance and private providers of health care compete with the NHS. (Though health care is still free at the point of delivery). Similarly with education and schools. Blair wants to radically change the education system, allowing parents more choice, encouraging competition between schools, closing failing schools and allowing successful ones financial independence. (i.e. not dependent on the local education authority for finance but receiving money direct from government).

Blair is also a Christian and has certain views about the value of "Faith in the Community"...I think he believes Faith of whatever particlular flavour(s) is better for society than no particular faith.

To this end, the government has been quietly encouraging faith schools, especially where they attract private money.

A guy called Reg Vardy made his money out of selling second hand cars....and probably out of a fear of divine retribution, has provided money for faith based (Christian) schools in the N East. Mr Blair was of course delighted, (not having bought one of his cars).

There have always been denominational schools in England, notably Church of England schools (and Catholic). These provide free education and are often indistinguishable from ordinary state schools, except for the sign outside the main gate.

But now we have much more radically oriented schools, under Blair's faith based initiative. The Reg Vardy school teaches Creationism. We also have faith schools for Muslims Jews and I believe Sihks.

(Again these are state funded schools, there have always been private fee paying religious schools).

Anyhoo things were going absolutely fine until some idiots flew some planes into tall buildings in New York...you might have heard about this...and suddenly we were shoulder to shoulder with America, in a Global War on Muslims...no delete that Terrorism....well Islamism anyway.

And people started to think. About terrorism. About the Islamic madrassas in Pakistan, and their links to the UK. And about whether religious indoctrination of impressionable young minds was a Good Thing.

In short people have had a re think, not just about Islamic schools but about teaching such junk as Creationism/Intelligent Design as if it were science.

Blair is running out of time (he has said he will go in the next couple of years) and he want to see the legislation go through parliament which will transform school education.

He has two problems imo...

Oh the other major objection is that many Labour mps have been strong supporters of State Comprehensive Education, and see faith schools as nothing more than selective schools by stealth. (i.e. schools will select kids by intelligence, who also have parents who say they are devout Catholics, Jews, Muslims etc). So the main stream schools will loose their best intake to a plethora of semi private schools who are legally allowed to select, although not officially on grounds of ability)


Finally Blair has been running the show for too long already for a large section of the Labour party. His designated heir is Gordon Brown, and some think that by scuppering his education bill, it will hasten Brown's arrival at 10 Downing Street.

Hope that gives some indication of what s going on here, sorry for logn post.

Hmmm, let me think... I'll go with irrelevant on that one. "Meaningless" is the other option that pops to mind. And I'm feeling an urge to post a bunny with a pancake on its head...

Steve, Always concise and a clear explanation on wande's question. Now, if you can do an equally good job on spendi's question (as a Brit), "Smoking under 16 is a criminal offence and if you allow girls to leave classrooms when they claim to need to there is no end of traipsing up and down and disruptions enough to reduce any lesson to a shambles.Not in sex lessons though." we would be forever grateful.

Well post it ros.Once you've made yourself look silly once you may as well do it again and again.

Did you not see the post I was referring to.Shame on you.Have you a short attention span or do you not bother reading the thread.

My answer was none of the things you assert in respect of that post.

Thanks, Steve!

(One more favor, Steve: Blair's schools minister, Jacqui Smith, will be a featured speaker later this month for a conference on Christian schools in England. Let us know if she repeats her endorsement of teaching intelligent design.)

Thanks c.i. I would like to help witht he Spendy thing, but cant. Spendy is an expat Brit actually living on planet Zog with a mind outside of time and space. Well thats what he told me anyway.

Steve, That explains almost everything about spendi. That alone is worth a few pints of brew - when you come to the Chicago gathering in May.

ros-

wande quoted this on p 40



to which I replied-



I don't understand your objection.Both of those statements are true and are an answer to the point raised by the BHA which is a pressure group.

Why didn't you object to the quote which was from the British Humanist Association?

You've certainly got that down, spendi, do it well, and deserve high marks for consistency. Be sorta interesting to see you try a new trick once in a while, though; you've about worn that one out through repetition.

To fill in Steve's rather loaded piece there is an article in the Sunday Times headed-

State Teachers go private for own children.The article relates to a teacher's education website which,like us has user-names.

One paragraph reads-

"Some (teachers that is) said they had opted to pay for private education while others wrote of pretending to be devout Christians to win places at a church school."

Another reads,quoting from the site-

"One posted: 'Mrs Manc (UN) and I have had to pretend to be pious Christians for Manc junior to get into our preferred single-sex "faith" high school."

One of the usernames quoted is Pandora Peroxide which might provide a route through Google for anyone wishing to see this website.

Anyway-Sell Dover property is my advice.

Rod Liddle's article in the same issue has these items.

1-It is Sir Reg Vardy.

2-The film (Liddle is involved in a film for Ch 4)-is about the growth of evangelistic Christianity and,partly,the way in which this government has allowed evangelicals to start running state schools.

3-Liddle,quite a nasty piece of work,says Sir Reg is-" a bluff and rather likable car dealer.."

4- The head teacher-"another decent,likable man,named Nigel McQuoid--reckons it (the earth) was made by God 5,000-6,000 years ago--which does not accord with scientific enquiry."

5-Liddle says that the kids are "refreshingly polite and pass their exams by and large."

Googling Sunday Times click on "Choice is ruining education".

It might make a change from spitting out meaningless,derogatory epithets.

"

I thought you and Rod Liddle would get on well.

timber wrote-



Well I know I'm not supposed to be allowed to answer cheap jibes.

On the tricks-you've seen nothing yet.You've shot your few arrows so many times that they are all blunt and I have hardly got started.

Speaking of rabbits with pancakes on their heads one might imagine the one in the photo being made to smoke 600 fags a day to prove that tobacco causes cancer after a few years thanks to Mr Darwin's groundbreaking efforts to support experiments on animals.

Of course rabbits don't usually smoke fags so they had to be forced to by means unsuitable of description on such a sweet and innocent thread as this is.

spendius & steve,

Thanks for the information on the school situation in England.

The British Humanist Association had also specifically criticized MP Jacqui Smith for making favorable remarks about creationism and intelligent design. This is significant because Ms. Smith serves as the schools minister. She is also scheduled to be a featured speaker at a conference on the role of Christian schools in England.

Do either of you know about any controversy regarding the schools minister's stance on teaching intelligent design?

wande-

Can you not Google her.She's only 43.
She's in favour of ID cards which is quite sufficient for me.Probably a counter jumper.Most of the Blair Babes are.

SOUTH CAROLINA UPDATE

To be honest, I don't put any serious effort into reading your posts any more Spendi, they aren't worth it. So if you did say something meaningful amidst all your clutter, I probably missed it.