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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:18 pm
timber wrote-

Quote:
There is no justification to, logic behind, or excuse for any agenda which seeks to governmentally impose any religious concept on society.


I profoundly disagree.And, I would hope, so would you if you realised the import of your remark.

""Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God,if ever he had a chosen people.Corruption of morals in the mass of cultivators is a phenomenon of which no age nor nation has furnished an example."

"...generally speaking,the proportion which the aggregate of other classes of citizens bears in any state to that of its husbandmen,is the proportion of its unsound to its healthy parts,and is a good enough barometer whereby to measure its degree of corruption."



Thomas Jefferson-Notes on Virginia.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:24 pm
timber wrote-

Quote:
One's own sprirituality is one's own spirituality, a personal matter, and by no rationale binding on others.


I don't have the impression that IDers are imposing much.Are they not merely seeking to suggest that there might be an alternative view to the austere and frightening evolution doctrine which,it seems,anti-IDers are desperate to impose.?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:25 pm
Trust me, spendi, I fully realize the import of my remark, and stand foursquare behind the sentiment. While I unqualifiedly defend anyone's right to believe as they wish, I no less firmly reject and oppose the notion that any have the right to impose their beliefs on any others - there is no dichotomy there; the 2 are but a single concept, forming a foundational moral and ethical precept - incontravetable, indivorceable, indisoluable, indispensible.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:31 pm
Quite a lame attempt at being a propagandist on the part of Spendi here. A term such as "anti-IDers" is meaningless. Those who oppose the imposition of ID on school curricula can be educators, or scientiists, or ordinary citizens sufficiently well-informed not to want "creationism" imposed on the school system, or highly religious people who object to the particularism of the Protestant fundamentalists who promote ID.

There is nothing austere about a theory of evolution. In fact, there is a riotous, almost overwhelming body of data to support it, full of life and color, and far more convincing and entertaining than the cartoon characters who populate the biblical literalists' Genesis. Those who oppose the imposition of ID are not desparate to impose anything. They are defending the current curriculum, not attempting to impose any innovations on the educational system. It was only in the 1960's that the last of the laws prohibiting the teaching of evolution were lifted, and it was only near the end of that decade that the Supremes shot down teaching creation in schools.

I now expect Spendi to take an entirely different tack, and begin making outrageous claims about a hide-bound curriculum being defended against an innovative program.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:37 pm
"...frightening evolution doctrine ..." just about says it all; religionists fear that evolution will/has turned the literal "genesis" on its head.

They speak of "alternatives" without providing any of the necessary evidence to defend their point.
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lmur
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:39 pm
Setanta wrote:
Quite a lame attempt at being a propagandist on the part of Spendi here. A term such as "anti-IDers" is meaningless. Those who oppose the imposition of ID on school curricula can be educators, or scientiists, or ordinary citizens sufficiently well-informed not to want "creationism" imposed on the school system, or highly religious people who object to the particularism of the Protestant fundamentalists who promote ID.

There is nothing austere about a theory of evolution. In fact, there is a riotous, almost overwhelming body of data to support it, full of life and color, and far more convincing and entertaining than the cartoon characters who populate the biblical literalists' Genesis. Those who oppose the imposition of ID are not desparate to impose anything. They are defending the current curriculum, not attempting to impose any innovations on the educational system. It was only in the 1960's that the last of the laws prohibiting the teaching of evolution were lifted, and it was only near the end of that decade that the Supremes shot down teaching creation in schools.......


http://i2.tinypic.com/qswbkl.jpg

I had heard that Motown changed the face of popular culture, but had no idea...
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 01:40 pm
Paddy, never underestimate the power and influence of black female performers in American society . . .
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 02:25 pm
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
I now expect Spendi to take an entirely different tack, and begin making outrageous claims about a hide-bound curriculum being defended against an innovative program.


No chance.I'll be on the same tack as before and hoping somebody can understand it.Maybe not any who contribute to this thread but there are others who see it.

c.i. wrote-

Quote:
"...frightening evolution doctrine ..." just about says it all; religionists fear that evolution will/has turned the literal "genesis" on its head.


What a crass and self-serving misunderstanding that represents.I haven't the slightest interest in such things.Genesis has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned and nor have any other dogmas.
Not even the dogmas the anti-IDers live by.

There seems to be a serious "hang-up" about fear in some American men.Fear is a perfectly natural response to a frightening existence as Darwin and his faction were well aware of.

Last week we were treated to a list of well known American macho hero movie stars,from whom I presume this "hang-up" has derived,who Mr Brando had "had".And there's also the sorry spectacle of Brokeback Mountain being nominated and the Oscar ceremony itself,which I saw as much of as a civilised and educated man could be expected to take, to be considered.

Another question-(repeated due to failure of answers)-what can be an anti-IDers concept of beauty in the organic world when it consists in one long,bloody,selfish war of dog-eat-dog and the weakest to the wall.Constant.

Just don't look too close eh?

And how do humans prevent themselves from being "wolves" as one founding father said.

Those are significant questions.Asserting they are not significant is no answer.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 03:29 pm
Darwin told Professor Owen that he was-

"inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws."

And he mooted to Asa Gray,the eminent botanist-

"designed laws,whether good or bad,left to the working out of what we may call chance."

Designed laws eh?

Another odd little thing.According to anti IDers everything is meaningless and purposeless and of no significance.So writing on this thread is all those things at once.At least IDers,thinking otherwise,have logic on their side,when they eventually do decide to join in here.

And there is not one anti IDer who has the slightest idea whether the outcome of this debate is good or bad from his own animal perspective.

**Have you not checked out my member profile?
The only thing I say about myself.I very much doubt you guys are up for that which is why I think you're "half-baked" evolutionists.You're all a big deal as far as I can tell.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:08 pm
spendi will enlighten us how and why "evolutionary doctrine" is "frightening."
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 06:09 pm
It's existentialism on the end of an oxy-acetylene blowtorch and if you can take it good luck to you but billions can't and seek comfort in ridiculous fantasies and I am 100% in favour of them doing so because those who can take it can't run an ice-cream stall in a heatwave in Mesopatamia at 2 cents a pound with choc,choc flavours and coloured sugar sprinkles for tempters.

You see-I do answer questions.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 6 Mar, 2006 07:32 pm
"...comfort in ridiculous fantasies..." describes you to a "t."
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 06:21 am
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
"...comfort in ridiculous fantasies..." describes you to a "t."


Yes and the ice-cream stall metaphor embraces literary ability in its scope as is self evident from the comprehension displayed there to say nothing of the originality of the cliche, which would hardly be decorous on a thread where such things pile up in serried ranks like the rivets on the hull of an oil tanker designed to carry large quantities of crude except that the rivets serve a useful purpose.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 09:50 am
SOUTH CAROLINA UPDATE
(Press Release from American Association for the Advancement of Science)

Quote:
The American Association for the Advancement of Science is pushing for South Carolina's Board of Education to oppose changes to the state's biology standards that would call into question the theory of evolution. The board will consider the proposed language on March 8.

"We urge you to resist efforts to weaken science education in South Carolina. High quality education for all citizens is critical to the future security, economic vitality, and health and well-being of the United State," writes AAAS' Board Chair Gilbert Omenn in a February 28 letter to Joe Isaac, chair of the state's Board of Education. "As President Bush made clear in his recent State of the Union Address, the nation cannot afford to compromise the quality of its science education, especially at the K-12 level," Omenn warned

The alternative language, suggested by the South Carolina Education Oversight Committee, includes the phrase "critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory." Omenn argues that this wording "misrepresents the nature of the scientific process" and unreasonably singles out evolution from other scientific theories like relativity, the germ theory of disease, and the atomic theory of matter. AAAS says it is especially concerned about the anti-evolution proposal because South Carolina has "established a record of excellence in science education." The Fordham Foundation has said the state's treatment of evolution in its 2000 Science Curriculum Standards is "exemplary," awarding it one of only seven "A" grades.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 10:20 am
wandeljw wrote:
SOUTH CAROLINA UPDATE
(Press Release from American Association for the Advancement of Science)

Quote:
"As President Bush made clear in his recent State of the Union Address, the nation cannot afford to compromise the quality of its science education, especially at the K-12 level."


But ...

Quote:
Remarks made by President Bush on August 1 that "intelligent design" should be taught along side evolution in the nation's public schools generated a ground swell of media coverage across the country. Many scientists and educators stepped forward to defend the teaching the evolution and the robust body of knowledge that supports it, including the president's science advisor, Dr. John Marburger, who is quoted in the New York Times saying, "evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology" and "intelligent design is not a scientific concept."


Isn't politics fun.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 10:29 am
John McCain, senator from Arizona, publicly endorsed intelligent design even though it is not an issue in his own state. Arizona has no pending legislation regarding science education.

Big Surprise: McCain recently announced he is seeking the 2008 Republican nomination for president.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 10:45 am
wande-

I think questioning evolution is the best method of understanding it.

Omenn's statement about high quality education is so obvious as to be not worth saying.It's flannel.

The AAAS is not elected I presume whereas the SCBE is or partly so.That raises the issue of taxation and taxpayers deciding how their money is best spent rather than entities like the AAAS.A crucial matter.

It is rather obvious as well that evolution is a special category of science unlike relativity,germ theory of disease and atomic theory of matter.The last three don't raise highly emotive issues in the same way that evolution does.One might regret that but it is a large political fact.

Thus it isn't unreasonable to single it out.

The idea that reading out some paragraphs in Dover or to "critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory" is going to lead to a nation of fanatical fundamentalists is ludicrous.Such things will not hold scientific progress back one iota except where there is widespread agreement on such matters as cloning and aspects of stem cell research.

Methinks Mr Omenn complains too much and is in danger of being a scaremonger where no threat exists.

And what is the AAAS doing venturing into politics?
Shouldn't their energies and funds be applied to science rather than self publicity.He sounds to me like he's lining himself up for paid chat show appearences and suchlike.

Does "advancement of science" mean advancement into power positions?

Have they no labs and research projects to occupy themselves with?
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 10:55 am
Quote:
AAAS Science & Technology Policy Fellowships


The Fellowships help to establish and nurture critical links between federal decision-makers and scientific professionals to support public policy that benefits the wellbeing of the nation and the planet. The Fellowships are designed to:

educate scientists and engineers on the intricacies of federal policymaking;
provide scientific expertise and analysis to support decision-makers confronting increasingly complex scientific and technical issues;
foster positive exchange between scientists and policymakers;
empower scientists and engineers to conduct policy-relevant research that addresses challenges facing society; and
increase the involvement and visibility of scientists and engineers in the public policy realm.


That sounds like a lobby group to me wande.

Their site seems a bit coy on funding.Could you enlighten us?
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parados
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 11:06 am
spendius wrote:
wande-

I think questioning evolution is the best method of understanding it.



Questioning anything is the best method to understand it.

When you question evolution you find it has tons of observations and predictions that support it as a theory.

When you question ID, you find.... hmm.. no science at all. You can't point to any design features that can't be better explained by natural sources. You can't make any predictions of what you will find in the future. You only find a philosophy.
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parados
 
  1  
Tue 7 Mar, 2006 11:08 am
Quote:

Scientists offer strong evidence that humans are still evolving
Their detection of genes reshaped by natural selection may help explain why people have a such a variety of appearances.
Nicholas Wade, New York Times



Providing the strongest evidence yet that human beings are still evolving, researchers have detected some 700 regions of the human genome where genes appear to have been reshaped by natural selection, a principal force of evolution, within the last 5,000 to 15,000 years.

The genes that show this evolutionary change include some responsible for the senses of taste and smell, digestion, bone structure, skin color and brain function.

Many of these instances of selection may reflect the pressures that came to bear as people abandoned hunting and gathering for settlements and agriculture, a transition well under way in Europe and East Asia some 5,000 years ago.


Why would an intelligent designer have to keep tinkering with the design?
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