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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 02:14 pm
Wouldn't half vast be just as vast as full vast like half infinity is just as infinite as infinity.

At least I try to avoid inventing crude concoctions of words to justify some self complimentary attitudes to life.

I'm not sure I can imagine "useless linguistics".The idea seems like another empty assertion designed to make foolish people feel that only the user of such an anti-human remark can do useful linguistics.

A culture consists of the sum total of the actions taking place within it.My posts are an action and are thus a part of the culture.To designate a certain set of actions as "useless" is the inner spring of totalitarianism and coupled with power leads to smoking ruins.

The technologist type is well known for totalitarian attitudes.They are almost always certain what the right way forward is and keen to pronounce on it.
Of course,the fact that what they pronounce usually suits their purposes,or at least they think it does,is a pure,unlooked for accident.

Just try a few years in the same pub in the company of-

1Men with daughters.
2Men with sons.
3Single men of the Don Juan type
4Divorced men

Just to name a few crude categories.

You would have to be completely stupid not to discern definite self-serving patterns in their attitudes.

But I suppose those who don't mix company with intoxicated states might never notice.

Does anybody here go out everynight taking on all comers like I have done for years.My guess is not.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 02:49 pm
spendius wrote:
Does anybody here go out everynight taking on all comers like I have done for years.My guess is not.


I sure not. But have you shaked hands and talked to 256 people in an afternoon?

That's my record, ascertained by a scientific of the SD kind...

Which cause does it make advance?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 03:29 pm
I never did do that Francis.I'm generally averse to shaking hands at all.It seems a pretty empty gesture these days.One of my favourite phrases is "contactless sociability".Such things never advance anything in my view.A knowing wink I find breaks the ice better.

But it's reassuring to know that an SDer could count that far.The grande Marquis only made it to 100 didn't he?

I hope you were wearing gloves.
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Francis
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 03:43 pm
Different countries, different customs, Spendi.

I agree it never advance anything.

But the Marquis made it to more than 100...

No gloves, I'm used to spreading germs...
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 03:58 pm
spendispeak
Quote:
At least I try to avoid inventing crude concoctions of words to justify some self complimentary attitudes to life.


No thats true, you go on and on and on and then try to stick in a few lame "zingers" that are often as not close to being something pathological. However, Im not a physician, Ill leave the diagnoses up to the experts.

Ill withdraw now. smiling.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 17 Feb, 2006 04:24 pm
When I withdraw I don't bother announcing it.

I have been diagnosed by experts.Quite a few times.Never had one complaint.The various authorities have let me loose on quite a number of various projects where it must have been felt that I was to be entrusted to accomplish the objectives they had in mind.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder,as it assuredly is,then so also is pathological, although such a word doesn't ever spring readily to my mind.

But I'm just a poor little ID-iot aren't I?I can't be expected to toss such long words out willy-nilly.They are just too technical for me.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 06:35 am
went to another Baptist "seminar" on Creationism last night. This time, at least we werent excorted out by the "objective Evangelicals " We entered a debate that the minister(who I know) was ready to discuss the realms of religion and science. Thisw was much to the chagrin of the invited speaker who wanted to implant the seed in the audiences mind that what he said was verifiable, when for the most part, it was pure myth and poopy.

Kudos to the pastor who, after calming his"scientist" speaker ,got into a discussion of the real realms of religious faith and where it differs from scientific data and evidence. All in all, in these post Dover days, I was very pleased that , although the sanctuary was full of groups of high school kids whose parents had taken them to see this "show" as an affirmation of their beliefs, they were insted, resepctfully asked to consider the boundaries of their faith (especially if they wish to be considered educated).I think the Baptist Conference in this area must be having some doctrine discussions similar to a Vatican Conference. This was the first time Ive ever heard the Baqptists discuss the possibility that the Bible may not be literal truth.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 07:32 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
This was the first time Ive ever heard the Baptists discuss the possibility that the Bible may not be literal truth.


Which only goes to show that this is the first time you've heard the Baptists discuss the possibility that the Bible may not be the literal truth.

I hope you're not suggesting that this is the first time they've discussed it.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 08:20 am
Ive concluded spendi that youve got nothing substantive to add. Youre just some sort of a beset contrarian who never spends time getting beneath the surface o issues If you wish to discuss what Baptists believe, try it out on me, dont be some little snotbag who comes in , plants a soft turd and then disappears till the time for your next contrarian (and often totally illogical) insertion.

Ive grown weary of your chrlishness.
Go have yet another few drafts of whatever it is that you drink. Its not a "school day" and its PM over there. If you get loaded nobody'll notice
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 09:07 am
Look at this IDers and waverers.

They can dish it out but they can't take it.Some of the things they've said about religious belief and the folks who hold them are much more churlish than anything I ever said."Stupid" and "loony" are examples of pretty strong stuff even though the lack of originality is palpable.

Now they want the field to themselves.The only defender of the ID position without whom there is no debate is politely asked to leave the field.

fm tries out one of the oldest tricks in the book and when it is pointed out to him he has a bit of a tantrum and starts giving orders.

The authentic totalitarian intolerance peeping out.

I'll have my "draughts" when I decide assuming I'm not breaking any regulations.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 09:55 am
William Dembski promotes intelligent design, spendi.

This is how Dembski responded to the legislation in Wisconsin (from Baptist Press news service):

Quote:
William Dembski, one of the leading proponents of Intelligent Design, described Berceau's proposed legislation as "a clear sign that we are winning." Critics of Intelligent Design "look foolish when they have to take political action to quash ID," he stated on his weblog. "Materialistic evolution already holds a de facto monopoly over public school science education" in what Dembski described as "a fundamental inequity in public school science education."

Dembski, a mathematician and philosopher, is the Carl F. H. Henry Professor of Theology and Science at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.; senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture; and author of several books on Intelligent Design, including "The Design Revolution" and "Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing.".

Some ID proponents have resorted to political measures in order "to break up that monopoly," Dembski acknowledged, but "for materialistic evolution to require legislation to preserve its monopoly will in the end be seen as heavy-handed and self-serving....

"[F]or academics with stellar reputations like [Elliott] Sober and [Ronald] Numbers [who attended Berceau's news conference] to be actively supporting such political interference signifies that they are losing not only the war of ideas but also their position of cultural dominance," Dembski said.

Both University of Wisconsin faculty members are among the leading opponents of Intelligent Design. Sober is a philosophy professor; Numbers is a professor of the history of science and medicine.

Dembski compared the Wisconsin proposal to a federal judge's December ruling against the teaching of Intelligent Design in public schools in Dover, Pa.

"Unlike Dover, where the focus was on ID's legitimacy as science, such a trial [in Wisconsin] would focus on the exclusive right of evolutionary theory to maintain its monopoly over the teaching of biological origins.... [T]his will be a much more difficult case for the ACLU to win. In Dover, ID needed to defend itself. In such a case [in Wisconsin], evolution will need to defend itself....

"Dover certainly wasn't ID's Waterloo. Wisconsin may well be evolution's Waterloo," Dembski said.

Also on his Internet site, Dembski responded to Berceau's proposed legislation by stating, "I'm offering $1000 to the first teacher in Wisconsin who (1) challenges this policy (should it be enacted) by teaching ID as science within a Wisconsin public school science curriculum (social science does not count), (2) gets him/herself fired, reprimanded, or otherwise punished in some actionable way, (3) obtains legal representation from a public interest law firm (e.g., Alliance Defense Fund), and (4) takes this to trial.

"I encourage others to contribute in the same way," Dembski stated, though he acknowledged to Baptist Press, "My offer of $1,000 is more symbolic than anything. The personal cost of engaging in such litigation will be huge and in no significant way offset by the $1,000 I'm offering."

The Alliance Defense Fund, he noted, "knows the issues and has a proven track record in handling such cases. Also, they have a good working relationship with the ID community."
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:27 am
Thanks wande-

I presume you notice,aside from the temperance of the language,there is no mention of the beliefs.

Dembski is posited on the fact of the beliefs and the willingness of those who hold them to fight their corner.A social matter.An "imaginary friend" is a real friend to those whose imaginations embrace such an idea and not one to be easily disposed of with a cheap jibe.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:39 pm
Wandeljw quoted William Dembski as follows:

Quote:
William Dembski, one of the leading proponents of Intelligent Design, described Berceau's proposed legislation as "a clear sign that we are winning." Critics of Intelligent Design "look foolish when they have to take political action to quash ID," he stated on his weblog. "Materialistic evolution already holds a de facto monopoly over public school science education" in what Dembski described as "a fundamental inequity in public school science education."


The absence of any genuine historical memory in the public is useful. Dembski ignores that the John Scopes "monkey trial" took place in 1925, almost 70 years after Darwin and Wallace proposed their theory of natural selection, and only eighty years ago. The act of the Tennessee legislature prohibiting the teaching of evolution, with which John Scopes was prosecuted, was repealed by the Tennessee legislature . . . in 1967, not even forty years ago. It appears that for much longer than critics of "intelligent design" have looked foolish, critics of evolution have looked as foolish, and more so, because of the apparent need to take political action to quash the teaching of evolution. The biblical literalists have declared war, and as always, the first casualty is the truth.

Quote:
Dembski, a mathematician and philosopher, is the Carl F. H. Henry Professor of Theology and Science at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.; senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture; and author of several books on Intelligent Design, including "The Design Revolution" and "Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing.".


All of which is to say, that Dembski has absolutely no scientific credentials with which to challenge a theory of evolution. The very title "professor of theology and science" is evidence of the extent to which science is no part of his agenda. His association with the Discovery Institute is the most laughable and absurd. The Discovery Institute is and always has been simply a propaganda mill and a political action committee. The only "discovery" involved has been the consistent attempt to discover new sources of funding in order to continue to promote a close-minded, biblical literalist view.

Quote:
Some ID proponents have resorted to political measures in order "to break up that monopoly," Dembski acknowledged, but "for materialistic evolution to require legislation to preserve its monopoly will in the end be seen as heavy-handed and self-serving....


It is a constant fault of blackened pots that they wish to see others as kettles, and decry their blackness. There can be few more heavy-handed tactics than packing local school boards with stealth candidates, and then springing ID on the local school district, eventually involving them in ruinously expensive litigation.

Quote:
"[F]or academics with stellar reputations like [Elliott] Sober and [Ronald] Numbers [who attended Berceau's news conference] to be actively supporting such political interference signifies that they are losing not only the war of ideas but also their position of cultural dominance," Dembski said.


Were the fundamentalist loonies not fearful of losing their centuries old position of moral superiority--which position does and always has, resided only in their own imaginations--people such as Dembski could not look forward to lucrative incomes from promoting sham science.

Quote:
Both University of Wisconsin faculty members are among the leading opponents of Intelligent Design. Sober is a philosophy professor; Numbers is a professor of the history of science and medicine.

Dembski compared the Wisconsin proposal to a federal judge's December ruling against the teaching of Intelligent Design in public schools in Dover, Pa.

"Unlike Dover, where the focus was on ID's legitimacy as science, such a trial [in Wisconsin] would focus on the exclusive right of evolutionary theory to maintain its monopoly over the teaching of biological origins.... [T]his will be a much more difficult case for the ACLU to win. In Dover, ID needed to defend itself. In such a case [in Wisconsin], evolution will need to defend itself....

"Dover certainly wasn't ID's Waterloo. Wisconsin may well be evolution's Waterloo," Dembski said.


The foregoing is cheerleading for the troops. This is not at all dissimilar to the way in which ID proponents attempted to frame the law suit in the Dover case. Their optimism did not match reality however, and it is doubtful that if the Wisconsin case reaches a Federal court, that they can look forward to any different outcome.

Quote:
Also on his Internet site, Dembski responded to Berceau's proposed legislation by stating, "I'm offering $1000 to the first teacher in Wisconsin who (1) challenges this policy (should it be enacted) by teaching ID as science within a Wisconsin public school science curriculum (social science does not count), (2) gets him/herself fired, reprimanded, or otherwise punished in some actionable way, (3) obtains legal representation from a public interest law firm (e.g., Alliance Defense Fund), and (4) takes this to trial.

"I encourage others to contribute in the same way," Dembski stated, though he acknowledged to Baptist Press, "My offer of $1,000 is more symbolic than anything. The personal cost of engaging in such litigation will be huge and in no significant way offset by the $1,000 I'm offering."

The Alliance Defense Fund, he noted, "knows the issues and has a proven track record in handling such cases. Also, they have a good working relationship with the ID community."


Symbolic is damned straight--Dembski and company will have to cast around for a teacher who can be deluded into making such an effort, and they'll have to do better than a thousand dollars--very likely insufficient to meet the monthly expenses of a modest family in Wisconsin. Apart from that, someone will have to come up with the literally millions of dollars necessary to pursue such a case, and if they lose, and lose a subsequent civil case, the millions which will be necessary to reimburse the school district they attempt to assault with this frivolous litigation.

All very cheery for the uncritical troops of the biblical literalists, but not a shred of realism in the entire screed.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:55 pm
I admit I was trying to call attention to the fact that Dembski is offering a "reward" for a Wisconsin teacher to teach intelligent design as science.

However, I also wanted to show that Dembski still insists that intelligent design is science (despite what happened in Dover).
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Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:59 pm
It is all obviously fodder for the ID propaganda mill, Wandel--exactly the same claims were made about "evolutionists" being obliged to prove their case before the Dover case actually landed in Federal court. When that happened, the Discovery Institute folded its collective tent and faded away in the night.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 02:38 pm
The total estimated costs for the Dover case, not including the side issues which may still include criminal charges against the school board president and two individuals for lying under oath, is just shy of 2.5 million bucks. In this case everyone loses when it comes to costs because itll all have to repocketed by public funds, since the school district lost and the plaintiffs are entitled to damages and court costs.


Pssst, the "new scientific" rollout by the DI is the concept of "sudden appearance". These guys will not only not give up, they will spare no linguitic expense to produce fresh new scams for the believers. Sudden appaearnace , for those unfamiliar with the term, is an old concept first used byGeorge Mcready Price(The Deluge Society),and Henry Morris in "Flood Geology" wherein the phrase "Animals suddenly appeared in the fossil record , complete and fully formed"was initially introduced to a wide audience
Now, if no religious dancing around is proffered in this hypothesis, it can have a similar scientific standing as does Punctuated Equilibrium or "Saltation theory". Im certain that someone , of a severe evangelical sect will not be able to keep his or her big mouths shut and will stupidly link "sudeen appearnaceism" with the Bible, and will thus negate its stealth Creationism.


The Discovery Institute is now making its main thrusts by "going global".They had been predominantly a US phenom , but, with the recognition that religious conversions by Evangelicals is outpacing the Catholic and Lutheran Missions, they figure ,
" what the hell, lets go to countries where we wont be pestered by this annoying constitution".(jan 2006 NCSE newsletter)
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 03:13 pm
farmerman,

I remember reading some of the Dover trial transcripts where one witness for the defense mentioned the concept of "sudden appearance". An attorney for the plaintiffs then asked, "Does that mean we have to come back next year for the 'sudden appearance' trial?" Judge Jones quickly stated, "Not on my docket!"
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 04:08 pm
hee hee. Im sure they will let the blood evidence be cleaned from the Dover trial transcript so that DI can sell their wares to the unwarey.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 05:24 pm
spendius wrote:
But I don't mind.You can pose anyway you wish as far as I'm concerned.It amuses me actually.I quite enjoy bursting out laughing in the pub when a pompous statement of the most utter naiveity is offered with unfaked gravitas as a guide to how the country ought to be run from somebody who has a known attention span of a few seconds and has made the totally unwarranted assumption that all his/her audience is as completely stupid as he/she is.


I know how you feel Spendi. I enjoy bursting out laughing when I read some of your posts (the ones that make sense, at least).
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 18 Feb, 2006 06:26 pm
Yeah ros-

There was one in the pub tonight.

We should "pull out of Iraq" he said putting his half empty pint pot down emphatically.

I felt sorry for his wife.Fancy having to put up with that stuff until death.
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