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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 07:16 pm
Yeah,I know.But they are running out of steam.I heard about a book called The End Of History.I didn't read it natch.There's only hooligans left now to challenge the status quo.Maybe ID but I don't think they are a serious runner.Not yet anyway.They are disorganised and divided.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 12:38 am
c.i. in answer to your comment that two negatives make a positive made me pause a while.

I have been thinking when I mentioned that the probability of a god with super powers poofing into existence out of nothing. In my case I assumed that there is no god as he cannot be proven to exist so I used 0/0 which is really undefined or indeterminate. But logically it is true, you obtain 'nothing' from 'nothing'. As there is nothing there is no god.
But if I assume that a god exists as it cannot be proven that he does not exists then I get 1/0 which is infinity. Logically it is false as you cannot get 'something' out of 'nothing'. So it is improbable for a god to poof into existence out of nothing.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 12:43 am
Well said, talk; obviously, that wraps it up..

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6452/abutton33td.jpg
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 02:19 am
spendius wrote:
I didn't see the Dawkins movie but I've been talking to two guys in the pub who were very impressed by it.

Obviously,after listening to their fawnings,I came to the conclusion that it was a junket around Isreal,Turkey,North and South America and possibly other attractive destinations which they couldn't remember, or which are to be revealed in Part 11, in 5-star hotels,with the usual amenities, based on trying to prove to the viewers that they are more intelligent than they actually are as a couch potato and thus making it unnecessary for them to make any effort in studying the subject which often has long words and difficult concepts
to contend with.This is very fertile soil in which to plough.Know the inner secrets whilst sat on your big fat arse eating a bag of chips.Brilliant.Love it.He is a genius.


Isn't 99% of all TV documentary like that? They seem to think they've got to make it palatable, simplified, diverse, fast-moving, dumbed-down if you will, in order to sell it.
It was an interesting programme nevertheless, with some good (if too brief) discussions stopping just short of fisticuffs...though they were thrown off the God-botherers' patch in Colorado, USA.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:42 am
Mac-

A series of staged incidents none of which are of any significance.A bit like pro-wrestling.Something like that has a seed.A meeting at a party;a specualtive phone call or a publisher's brainchild.Then it evolves but only from that seed which intelligence made out of nothing.

Getting away from the wife for a bit.Did his secretary accompany him?Put yourself in his place.
How long is he in Colorado to get the X minutes of pointless footage.A week maybe on the Licence payers.What about the rest of the time.Any shots of that?

Real funny stuff is editing of movie footage.That's why I like live sport although they do pull a few strokes on that as well.

This is okay.This is fairly real.
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:52 am
I recognise quite a bit of that baleful summary.

I've had TV documentary makers working on my patch more than once, and they didn't endear themselves.

Still, nice work if you can get it. Exercise of power without responsibility- a bit like writing opinions on A2K....
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 06:34 am
Mac wrote-

Quote:
Exercise of power without responsibility- a bit like writing opinions on A2K....


Only if the opinions on A2K are not in line with those of people who exercise power with responsibility.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:50 am
When I wrote this-

Quote:
The Second Religiousness seems to me to be inevitable and I like to think it will take us ever on,a real Faustian bedrock notion,to greater glories


I hadn't seem Brian Appleyard's article in the Sunday Times Culture magazine about Ansel Adams and Hubble pictures in which this sentence appears relating to "American sublime"-

"And 'America' here should not be understood as the land of Clinton and Bush,or yellow taxis and Iraq wars,but as the supreme contemporary expression of the human movement outward and beyond."

The first half of it is a bit clumsy but the rest is a neat way of describing the Faustian project.He ought to have removed "human" and replaced it with "Western" or "Faustian" or ,dare I say,"Christian".

Perhaps it is just that I am more "American" than some people on this thread.I ought to be too bearing in mind the amount of American artistic output I have assimilated.

It is a good article though and it can be Googled.

Also,for those interested Hubble photographs can be seen on hubble.nasa.gov-there's a comma after gov which I think is for punctuation in the sentence.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:03 am
Yesterday, Lola and farmerman pointed out that there is also debate about intelligent design in the Jewish community. One organization, the American Jewish Committee, been actively involved in church-state separation cases. The AJC released a statement praising the decision in the Dover case:
Quote:
NEW YORK, Dec. 20 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The American Jewish Committee applauds today's court decision rejecting as unconstitutional the introduction of intelligent design theories into the science classes of Dover, Pennsylvania public schools.
"Today's ruling is a significant blow to those who are attempting to intrude religious dogma, under the guise of science, into the nation's public schools," said Jeffrey Sinensky, AJC's general counsel. "Intelligent design is not a scientifically accepted theory, but a religious theory similar to creationism, which has no place in the science classroom of a public school. Any discussion of creationism or intelligent design would be more appropriate in a history or comparative religion class, as opposed to a science curriculum."
In Kitzmiller vs. Dover School District, plaintiffs challenged the Dover school board's decision that required high school biology teachers to read a disclaimer referencing intelligent design prior to teaching evolution. Rejecting the school board's mandated disclaimer, United States District Judge John E. Jones III wrote, "The disclaimer's plain language, the legislative history, and the historical context in which the ID policy arose, all inevitably lead to the conclusion that defendants consciously chose to change Dover's biology curriculum to advance religion."
Intelligent design is a theory of creation which posits that a higher being is responsible for the design of the universe, since the world is a complicated, elaborate system of life which only a higher being could have created.
Judge Jones, in his ruling, concluded that intelligence design is not a science, and cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.
"The secular purpose claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause," Jones said.
"The court's ruling underscores that the appropriate place to teach religion is in churches or synagogues, and not in the public schools," said Sinensky. "We hope that today's ruling will give pause to other school boards around the country that are flirting with the idea of introducing intelligent design into science curricula."
AJC is a staunch defender of the separation between church and state in the public school curriculum, particularly in the science classroom. In this vein, AJC has submitted amicus briefs in the key legal cases concerning evolution and creationism over the years, including Edwards vs. Aguillard. Most recently, AJC joined this year in a coalitional brief filed with the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals in Selman vs. Cobb County, where a school district required disclaimer stickers to be posted on science textbooks that teach evolution.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 10:21 am
wande-

So why would the AJC go to all this trouble?America is propping up Isreal.Mr Bush is an ID supporter of sorts.

What's the angle?They could have remained aloof.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 11:51 am
spendius,

The AJC believes that the best way to preserve religious freedom in the United States is to keep government and religion separate. Government schools should not be teaching religious doctrine.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 01:01 pm
talk72000 wrote:
c.i. in answer to your comment that two negatives make a positive made me pause a while.

I have been thinking when I mentioned that the probability of a god with super powers poofing into existence out of nothing. In my case I assumed that there is no god as he cannot be proven to exist so I used 0/0 which is really undefined or indeterminate. But logically it is true, you obtain 'nothing' from 'nothing'. As there is nothing there is no god.
But if I assume that a god exists as it cannot be proven that he does not exists then I get 1/0 which is infinity. Logically it is false as you cannot get 'something' out of 'nothing'. So it is improbable for a god to poof into existence out of nothing.


All sophistry.

Do you concede that the observable universe exists? Do you accept the "scientific" view that it "poofed into existence" 15 billion years ago? Alternatively, with quantum paradoxes in mind, do you accept the existence of multiple universes, each representing the manifold trajectories of quantum dualities?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 01:05 pm
george, Sophistry is better than dumbass opinions. I found his post to be quite logical.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 01:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
george, Sophistry is better than dumbass opinions. I found his post to be quite logical.


Well it seemed logical, but it is not. That is sophistry.

Think some more about the questions I asked.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 01:20 pm
wande-

Okay!I'll ask the question in a more simplified form.

Why does the AJC believe that.Why do they wish to preserve religious freedom?

Obviously the AJC will welcome the Dover decision and propagandise in favour of it if it suits it in some way.Why does it suit it?Does it actually think that an ID win in the first round will compromise,or risk compromising,it's freedom of religious practice.

Are there other minority religions which welcome the Dover decision for similar reasons or is this displayed enthusiasm specific to the AJC.

Is the AJC predominantly city based?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 01:43 pm
In my opinion, the viewpoint of the AJC is similar to many religious organizations. Sociological analysis is not necessary to understand why.

People of all beliefs (or no belief) have a better guarantee of equal treatment if their government refrains from endorsing religious doctrine.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 02:28 pm
george wrote:
Do you concede that the observable universe exists? Do you accept the "scientific" view that it "poofed into existence" 15 billion years ago? Alternatively, with quantum paradoxes in mind, do you accept the existence of multiple universes, each representing the manifold trajectories of quantum dualities?

First Q: Do you concede that the observable universe exists? Do you need an answer to this Q?

2d Q: Do you accept the "scientific" view that it "poofed into existence" 15 billion years ago? What part of "poofed into existence" are you talking about that scientists are claiming?

3d Q: ...with quantum paradoxes in mind, do you accept the existence of multiple universes, each representing the manifold trajectories of quantum dualities? I do not believe science has determined that as of this date, although they are now looking at Mars with their two Rovers.

Your questions concerning the origin of life as we know it on this planet is misguided and unreasonable at best when science continues to look for answers. Unless scientists can find observable, repeatable, evidence, we may never have those answers.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:48 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

Your questions concerning the origin of life as we know it on this planet is misguided and unreasonable at best when science continues to look for answers. Unless scientists can find observable, repeatable, evidence, we may never have those answers.


How can a question about the origin of the universe be characterized as "misguided and unreasonable" on a thread having to do with intelligent design???????

The proposition in question above was whether it is illogical to suppose that "something could come from nothing" or something like that. Science has learned a great deal about the development of the universe since the singularity attendant to its beginning about 15.5 billion years ago. However science can't tell us anything about the origin of the energy or mass that started it all, or if there was any "before" relative to that moment. Moreover there is no prospect whatever that it will ever be able to answer that question. I find it odd that one could scorn the notion that a creator or god could "poof" himself into existence, while, at the same time, blandly accepting that the observable universe did "poof" itself into existence. That conjunction of beliefs is both illogical and inconsistent.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 06:03 pm
The proposition that god poofed himself into existence is another poof theory; it can't be proved or denied. We will never know, but by all the information thus far available for us to consider, and based on a two thousand year old book, the answer would be no. God could not possibly have authored such a book with so many errors, omissions, translations, and revisions that differ in meaning from one to the next. It would only be funny if we were talking about a comic book.

Science is still not able to explain much of our environment; that doesn't mean they won't be able in the future. The theory of relativity and technologies available today are not that old; give science some time. They discover new things about our environment almost every day.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 10 Jan, 2006 06:12 pm
With the exception of a few of the more severe sects, Jews mostly have no need to buy the entire bag of crap that Christian Fundamentalism holds to be sacred. For the Fundamentalists, the accuracy of the OT leads to the credibility of the NT. Hence all the apple pie tales and development of nonsensical dogma. Jews dont even have a concept of heaven.( a necessary after-market feature for most of Christianity

Their sense of the Torah is that its a good lesson plan from which was built the promise between their God and them. Its a totally utilitarian text, front part fairy tales and the back end more History(with some jokes).
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