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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 03:10 pm
Lola wrote:
You're just funnin' with everybody. Come on, admit it.


I, at least, like to believe it...
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 03:28 pm
I believe he is having fun, but it seems fairly clear to me that he is also making a point about human needs and behavior, the insufficiency of science, and the dangers of giving too much authority to those who' do not know (or make allowance for) what they do not know.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 03:33 pm
And I do too.

I ain't funnin' .Religion is science and science is religion.The whole Faustian project,roughly 1000years in the making to here is rooted in religion and religion is the soil in which it has grown.
ID is a harbinger of a deep soul search for something more than sodding things and the mass of the population,those who make everything possible,feel a need to find it.Millions believe in aliens in UFOs and in action at a distance which is a result of central religious authority breaking down and the search becoming fragmented and thus easily picked off.And that is Destiny too.To be accepted as such.

The Second Religiousness seems to me to be inevitable and I like to think it will take us ever on,a real Faustian bedrock notion,to greater glories which science can never do when it arrives at the point where not only does the mass of the population not understand it but scientists themselves can't understand scientists in other specialisations than their own and sometimes not even then.

I'm a Utopian I suppose and I'm born in time not in space.

But the pub calls.The Religion there is Crumpet or Sport.Higher matters indeed.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 03:51 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I believe he is having fun, but it seems fairly clear to me that he is also making a point about human needs and behavior, the insufficiency of science, and the dangers of giving too much authority to those who' do not know (or make allowance for) what they do not know.


Doomsayers are always lurking. "Don't sail across that sea or you'll fall off the edge of the earth. Science is the devil's work, listen instead to me. Things fall apart, the center cannot hold. The End of the World is neigh, so have a drink, don't think, and slip away with me... " and on and on.

Caution is one thing. Fear is another.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 03:54 pm
But fear works better than caution. Look at all the Americans that are willing to give up their Constitutional protections for Bush, and the people of the christian religion that can't admit "fear" is their prime motivator.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 04:14 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
I believe he is having fun, but it seems fairly clear to me that he is also making a point about human needs and behavior, the insufficiency of science, and the dangers of giving too much authority to those who' do not know (or make allowance for) what they do not know.


Doomsayers are always lurking. "Don't sail across that sea or you'll fall off the edge of the earth. Science is the devil's work, listen instead to me. Things fall apart, the center cannot hold. The End of the World is neigh, so have a drink, don't think, and slip away with me... " and on and on.

Caution is one thing. Fear is another.


You have missed my point and the one Spendius advances. It isn't fear of either the unknown or of what science may well accomplish that concerns me. However the track record so far for societies (and governments) unrestrained by religion or the general recognition of general rights (or natural laws) above and beyond the purview and control of the society or government is sush as to inspire fear in the hearts of any who examine their deeds.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 04:19 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
You have missed my point and the one Spendius advances. It isn't fear of either the unknown or of what science may well accomplish that concerns me. However the track record so far for societies (and governments) unrestrained by religion or the general recognition of general rights (or natural laws) above and beyond the purview and control of the society or government is sush as to inspire fear in the hearts of any who examine their deeds.


Then I appologize, because I'm still missing your point.

What is it exactly which should inspire fear in the hearts of any who examine their deeds?

What do you mean by,
Quote:
unrestrained by religion or the general recognition of general rights (or natural laws) above and beyond the purview and control of the society or government
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 04:24 pm
That's real pessimism tied fast to complacency.

It's an old Freudian's trick.Deny something and you are unconsciously harbouring that very thing and just repressing it.What a load of bollocks.

And "scientists" making bald statements on which their whole position is posited which they haven't a shred of evidence for other than that it serves their argument.That's bollocks on bollocks.

Faustians are optimists.They have faith in our future."It's one small step for man and one giant leap for mankind."That pure Faustian poetry was worth staying up all night for on it's own despite the brilliance of the easier stuff.Mr Armstrong backgrounds himself with the "small" and foregrounds the future with "giant".And he was fearless.I think I might have needed a nappy on especially on take off.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 04:29 pm
Dear spendi and george,

Since when is practicing the scientific method grabbing power? I'm arguing for calling science what it is. What if scientists began to insist that the Pope and all his minions consider his faith in God to be science and thus required that faith be submitted to the scientific method? If "faith-in-God tests" revealed that there is actually no God to have faith in, then what? You'd have to go to the Supreme court.

Or are you two saying that science has begun to displace faith in God and therefore the scientific method is a menace? If you are, aren't we back to Copernicus and Galileo? And if we go back there, what would we do with penicillin? It's too late to claim that we don't believe penicillin works. You can't attack and destroy one scientific theory without destroying all of science.

I think you both would do well to remember that science is not about proof. It's about doubt, probability and the freedom to question authority.............oh, I see now why you object. Spendi, you believe (I think I understand you correctly here) the masses need to be controlled and religion is the best way to do it. So I can see how the freedom to doubt worries you. And george, I'm not sure what reason you have for believing that the freedom to doubt and question authority is "too much authority." And why you believe practicing science is an abduction of power. I hate to believe it, but your fear about "too much authority" is projection of the long established wish of the church to have as much power as they claim they should have.

Richard Feynman says it so much better than I can. "I feel a responsibility [as a scientist] to proclaim the value of this freedom ( to doubt) and to teach that doubt is not to be feared, but that it is to be welcomed as the possibility of a new potential for human beings. If you know that you are not sure, you have a chance to improve the situation. I want to demand this freedom for future generations." (The Meaning of It All, p. 28)

But really, the practice of the scientific method does not interfere with religious faith. If a person wants to believe they know something that can't be tested, and they like to believe that, then I see no harm in that belief. And who knows, anything might be true. Faith in God may well be helpful to many people. But this helpful belief should not interfere with scientific progress. If it does, then it's an evil that should be fought.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 04:32 pm
spendi, If scientist's statements are "bullocks on bullocks," your statements are plain manure on manure; it stinks.
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McTag
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 05:23 pm
spendius wrote:
And I do too.

I ain't funnin' .Religion is science and science is religion.The whole Faustian project,roughly 1000years in the making to here is rooted in religion and religion is the soil in which it has grown.


Quite wrong. Religion is faith-based and science is, at its experimental level, doubt-based.

That is, the scientist in his work designs experiments to disprove a theory.

By this process the theory, if it cannot be disproved, gains acceptance.

This is the opposite of a religious faith-based approach.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 05:27 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Then I appologize, because I'm still missing your point.

What is it exactly which should inspire fear in the hearts of any who examine their deeds?

What do you mean by,
Quote:
unrestrained by religion or the general recognition of general rights (or natural laws) above and beyond the purview and control of the society or government


I am referring to the chief scurges of the 20th century: states that set themselves, and the self-professed scientific principles on which they were based, up above all competing concepts regarding acceptable limits of behavior, and ended up (often very scientifically) slaughtering all who opposed them or who professed accountability to any power or concept beyond their grasp and control.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 05:45 pm
Lola wrote:
But really, the practice of the scientific method does not interfere with religious faith. If a person wants to believe they know something that can't be tested, and they like to believe that, then I see no harm in that belief. And who knows, anything might be true. Faith in God may well be helpful to many people. But this helpful belief should not interfere with scientific progress. If it does, then it's an evil that should be fought.


In contemplating the origins of the universe. any person, religious or otherwise is confronted with unknowns and the opportunity to make conjectures, none of which can be tested in a scientific sense. There was a creator, or there was not. Neither proposition can be tested by the scientific method. Science does not, and likely cannot, provide a definite answer to this question. One is therefore free to make any conjecture he pleases about this question (god; no god) - influenced, perhaps by the degree to which it interests him.

On the other hand one who conjectures that there is no god and goes further to posit that he knows this beyond doubt, indeed knows it scientifically, places his very questionable concept of science above all competing ideas and authority. For him there are no limits - anything may be permissable. The "scientific" practicioners of Marxism impoverished and enchained billions and slaughtered tens of millions in the past century: the Nazi's clouded their beliefs somewhat more cleverly, but likewise admitted no restraint whatever in their actions to further their "scientific" restructuring of Europe.

They were indeed frightful things, and they eclipsed by a large margin the many oppressive deeds done in history by those who accepted the idea of limits but rationalized them to suit their purposes.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 06:15 pm
george wrote: On the other hand one who conjectures that there is no god and goes further to posit that he knows this beyond doubt, indeed knows it scientifically, places his very questionable concept of science above all competing ideas and authority.

We can only conjecture there is no god, because there is no way by religion or science to prove it. Science does not try to prove what is not observable; that's an impossibility by any definition of science.

Show us where science (or any scientist) claims it can prove there is no god?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 06:27 pm
My faith in Lola is confirmed by this-

Quote:
oh, I see now why you object. Spendi, you believe (I think I understand you correctly here) the masses need to be controlled and religion is the best way to do it.


Bullseye babe.But I would only use the word "controlled" in exalted company.Normally I would say that it is best for the masses own sake not to put their hand in the fire to experiment on how hot it is and to take the advice of experience.They generally don't like the idea that they are being "controlled" for some reason or other which escapes me.Presumably they can't imagine what out of control masses look like in the flesh.I can't recall not being under the control of some force or other except maybe when I was dreaming and I don't pay any attention to dreams.

c.i.It is an ambition of mine to see if I can get you to make a serious contribution to this discussion.It pains me that a lady of doubtful respectabilty,by her own admission,a hetaera,should make you look like the proverbial muck-cart following the wedding procession.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 06:29 pm
My impression from the last few posts from Speni and George is that Strawmen have evolved into Scarecrows.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 06:50 pm
I didn't see the Dawkins movie but I've been talking to two guys in the pub who were very impressed by it.

Obviously,after listening to their fawnings,I came to the conclusion that it was a junket around Isreal,Turkey,North and South America and possibly other attractive destinations which they couldn't remember, or which are to be revealed in Part 11, in 5-star hotels,with the usual amenities, based on trying to prove to the viewers that they are more intelligent than they actually are as a couch potato and thus making it unnecessary for them to make any effort in studying the subject which often has long words and difficult concepts
to contend with.This is very fertile soil in which to plough.Know the inner secrets whilst sat on your big fat arse eating a bag of chips.Brilliant.Love it.He is a genius.
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parados
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 06:55 pm
george,

I wouldn't confuse science with totalitarianism. They are seperate things. One could as easily argue about the horrific deeds done in the name of religion. However it ignores the good religion may have done just as your argument ignores the good science has done.

This in no way relates to the teaching of ID other than to mirror the bastardization of science to promote control over others that you seem to think was the basis for marxism.

Morality doesn't require a god. It never has. It is an easy way to teach morals perhaps but it isn't the only way. Science certainly must have some moral restraints. That is why there are ethics boards. They really have little to do with religion. Certain human rights must be respected. The interesting thing is that religion doesn't always respect those rights either. Religion certainly doesn't live in a shining city on a hill. It has torn through many a valley leaving destruction in its wake.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 07:05 pm
Quote:
That is why there are ethics boards.


Ethics boards are specifically designed to restrain science.Some scientists think they are nonsensical.Such men are,at least,consistent.

Quote:
It has torn through many a valley leaving destruction in its wake.


There are such things as using religion for such activities.
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parados
 
  1  
Mon 9 Jan, 2006 07:08 pm
Spendius,


You seem to love wielding that double edged sword while only looking at the damage done with the duller edge on your forward stroke. You might want to look behind you some time.

Replace Dawkins with Catholicism in your last post and it all makes perfect sense as the congregents have to expend no effort to learn while enjoying their chips.

The difference with science is there are always a cadre of eager young faces ready to question the status quo.
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