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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:22 pm
Well, seems our spendy has already got a snootful this fine e'en

The title of this thread was ID science or religion. This has been answered in fine writing style(simple and declarative by Judge jones)
ID IS RELIGION. IT IS CREATIONISM RE_LABELLED. IT CAME INTO BEING AFTER EDWARDS (1987) ITS FULL OF SELF CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS AND , EMPLOYS AN ARGUMENT OF THOMAS AQUINAS AS ITS CORE THINKING. ITS HISTORY IS WELL UNDERSTOOD IN THE US AND A "REASONABLE PERSONTEST" WOULD ANSWER THE ABOVE WUESTION IN THE AFFIRMATIVE (YES VIRGINIA ITS RELIGION)

ITS "SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS" ARE NOT SCIENCE AT ALL
1 theyve all been refuted
2ID defies centuries old ground rules of science by employing supernatural causes in its force
3Irreducible Complexity employs the same flawed arguments (contrived dualism) that doomed the Creation SCiences in EDwards
4The scientific community has rejected ID

The key definition of Science by the National Academy suffices for thisw case, (since both sides stipulated to its prestige) The NAS rejects ID on a definitin basis

The main resource book "Of Pandas and people" has removed the word CREATIONISM and substituted InTELLIGENT DESIGN in no less than 150 places in the book (without any substantive change in place)

It was published by a spinoof of the Institute of SCientific Creationism, and was authored by 2 yound earth Creationists

I am finding judge Jobes opinion very entertaining. I believe that some how , some of our own discussion materials maybe were used in the case (hee hee).


spendius, If Iaze you, Id read this opinion. Itll demonstrate what good common sense writing is all about.It neednt be full of vague references, self congratulatory statements, and outright dizzyingly confusing passages. It just was good ole central Pa English in short choppy sentences (kinda like sports reporting). you can go to the ncse websight (among others )
http://www2.ncseweb.org/kvd/main_docs/kitzmiller_342.pdf
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:26 pm
<.....go farmerman, go farmerman......>
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 08:46 pm
Im not going anywhere, the weather outside is frightful.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 09:45 pm
spendius wrote:
ros-

That was a bit of a sweeping statement you quoted from the learned judge.


Yes, it almost infringes on [your favorite topic] the *social* standing of supporters of ID, doesn't it.

spendius wrote:
I reckon I could have made him see it differently with a real factual backdrop conjoured up for him.


Ya reckon?

I'm sure JJ would have just LOVED to hear from you Spendi. After listening to all that other inane ID crap, hearing from you would have just put a big cherry right on top of the sunday (along with the nuts).
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 09:51 pm
farmerman wrote:
Now, the next "last stand " for Phil Johnson and his gang, is "Teaching the Controversy"


The Judge dealt wih "teaching the controversy" as well...

The following is from page 89 of the opinion:

Quote:
ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science. Accepting for the sake of argument its proponents', as well as Defendants' argument that to introduce ID to students will encourage critical thinking, it still has utterly no place in a science curriculum. Moreover, ID's backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous,
and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.


This decision wasn't just a nail in the coffin, it was a complete cremation of the corpse. This parrot is dead, deceased, met its maker...

And good riddance.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:32 pm
rosborne, I wouldn't be so confident that ID is a dead issue.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:17 am
farmerman wrote:
The title of this thread was ID science or religion. This has been answered in fine writing style(simple and declarative by Judge jones)


I am the luckiest person on A2K to have my question answered in a 139 page opinion by a federal judge! Very Happy
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 06:58 am
I had to stop by for a little celebration. I'm at the airport, due to the transit strike I had to leave home this morning at 4:30 am for my 12:45 flight. I'll soon be sleeping in the chair in the corner of the Admiral's Club.

But I'm as pleased as a pink pickle with sprinkles. The judge is logical and even in his statement. Unusual these days. Very happy over the decision, I am I am.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:12 am
Thanks, Lola. Let us know when your cafe is reopening. We will have our celebration there.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 08:31 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
rosborne, I wouldn't be so confident that ID is a dead issue.


You're probably right CI. But I'll enjoy ID's ignominious defeat for now.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 09:35 am
So the judge said that ID=Creationism=Religion.

So-it is Science v Religion.As ever.

No more hiding behind the nice curtains of Dover which is a place I have never heard of in common with the vast bulk of the human race.Until this of course.It was never a local issue.It's a big deal.You lot of hubritics have been using it as a drum unless you can go all the way for Science.I mean ALL the way.The ID side,for all their feather duster approach,which you have taken liberties with,know where modern biology is up to and I'm not talking about chiclids or fossils.We all know that in human reproduction lessons they will be told about how the penis is inserted into the reproductive canal and how the sperm is deposited on the egg but that equally applies to what happened in Hitler's eugenic camps or with pigs.What about how?Which penis-which reproductive canal.Who or what sorts them out.Short straws?And what causes the sperm to be released.It must be some sort of disturbance in the organism otherwise it would be running out all the time.What is Science going to do when it takes complete control with that lot.What's the point of dance halls,bars,hunt balls,choir practice,movies,literature,art,pin-ups,etc etc and where will motivation come from to climb the greasy pole if it's only a mechanical process which schools of modern biology say it is.It's the drift into mechanical processes that Andy Warhol was warning about and he went to church every week.
And what have women to worry about?They have a monopoly of eggs and men have maybe 80million tablespoonsful a day to go round.That's 16,000 million tadpoles.(In the US).Which looks a bit one sided to me as a half-wit scientist in a mechanical world.And don't think women don't know.They only have to do a come hither gesture and it's the charge of the light brigade.It must be tempting to overcharge in such circumstances and what processes could Science offer to persuade them not to overdo it.No wonder Lola has made a rare appearence and taken time in her busy schedule to have a gleeful gloat.

Share tips-

BUY-Ladies fashions/Soft furnishings/Beauty products/Pharmaceuticals/Puerile publishing/Remote log cabins.

SELL-Breweries/Race tracks/Sport.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 09:57 am
Hi Lola-

What a refreshing change your pretty phrases make to the turgidities usually to be found here.I am aware why you are so pleased with the decision in Pa.You naughty little mantis you."The last,rasping gasp of the mantis's groom", springs to mind.You will tell all your fans to be merciful won't you?

But fancy finding you on the same side as Judge Jones.I know you tried to make it sound less pleasant by your saying that it was unusual for you to think he was logical but that doesn't distract my attention from your agreement with him in this particular,and special case.

Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:31 am
hey spendi, try some soylent green. Its chock full of num nums.

Its interesting that the first thing out of the Thomas More Law Center was that this judge "overreached" in that he issued such a broad decision that hes possibly violated his very charge.
The ID"think tank" issued a kind-of rebuttal in that "this decision wont affect the probability that ID will have captured the nations hearts and minds within 5 to 10 years". Then Richard Dembski put out a call that (in itself is quite laughable) We(The ID and CReationist community) will have to develop our own theory and conduct our own research to show the validity of our position (Im paraphrasing a paraphrase). DUHHH, Isnt this one of the exact things that weve been dinging on these guys all along?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:45 am
Thomas More Law Center has been contradicting itself all along. When the case was originally filed, the center announced: "The evolution revolution has begun!" Several months later when the trial was about to start, they contended that the school board's action was "modest" and the case should be dismissed.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:47 am
BBB
I wonder if they will use as the basis of their research the theory that ancient alien astronauts landed on the Earth and mated with the local beasties to create what we perceive as modern humans. It would merge with their intelligent design theory.

BBB :wink:
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:59 am
hubritics and turgidites? Still up to par I see. But Spendi.........science doesn't interfere at all with enjoying life. They aren't opposed. One is explanatory, the other experiencial. I enjoy both. But one must not make the mistake of having to choose. What a bother!

My cafe will be open. Welcome to all. But right now I have to go to the gate. The time has finally arrived for me to fly.

Happy Holidays to you and all as well.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:59 am
spendius wrote:
No more hiding behind the nice curtains of Dover which is a place I have never heard of in common with the vast bulk of the human race.Until this of course.It was never a local issue.It's a big deal.You lot of hubritics have been using it as a drum unless you can go all the way for Science.I mean ALL the way.The ID side,for all their feather duster approach,which you have taken liberties with,know where modern biology is up to and I'm not talking about chiclids or fossils.We all know that in human reproduction lessons they will be told about how the penis is inserted into the reproductive canal and how the sperm is deposited on the egg but that equally applies to what happened in Hitler's eugenic camps or with pigs.What about how?Which penis-which reproductive canal.Who or what sorts them out.Short straws?And what causes the sperm to be released.It must be some sort of disturbance in the organism otherwise it would be running out all the time.What is Science going to do when it takes complete control with that lot.What's the point of dance halls,bars,hunt balls,choir practice,movies,literature,art,pin-ups,etc etc and where will motivation come from to climb the greasy pole if it's only a mechanical process which schools of modern biology say it is.It's the drift into mechanical processes that Andy Warhol was warning about and he went to church every week.
And what have women to worry about?They have a monopoly of eggs and men have maybe 80million tablespoonsful a day to go round.That's 16,000 million tadpoles.(In the US).Which looks a bit one sided to me as a half-wit scientist in a mechanical world.And don't think women don't know.They only have to do a come hither gesture and it's the charge of the light brigade.It must be tempting to overcharge in such circumstances and what processes could Science offer to persuade them not to overdo it.No wonder Lola has made a rare appearence and taken time in her busy schedule to have a gleeful gloat.


Wow Spendi, Wow. That's one weird spankin you're tring to give that monkey on your back.

And put the candy back in your pocket and quit leering at Lola. I get the feeling she's way to classy for that.
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blatham
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:57 am
spendi said:
Quote:
That's one where presentation takes precedence over substance.Like with tart's knicker's curtains.


That's lovely, spendi.

rosborne said:
Quote:
And put the candy back in your pocket and quit leering at Lola. I get the feeling she's way to classy for that.


And that's quite mistaken, ros.

**********

I gotta say, this judgement (from a Republican appointed by Bush, no less) hits every important issue of the trial smack on the money:

- ID is creationism covertly re-labeled (coincident with the SC decision)
- board members quite happy to lie (for a greater jesus-truth)
- ID is theology, and not science (testability, minus any peer review)
- teaching ID violates the constitutional separation of church/state

Wonderful. A spot of sanity in a period when sanity is meagerly represented.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:14 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Wow Spendi, Wow. That's one weird spankin you're tring to give that monkey on your back. And put the candy back in your pocket and quit leering at Lola. I get the feeling she's way to classy for that.


Smile

Spendi can I just ask, are you frightened of women? I mean they frighten me, especially at the wheel of a 4*4 on the 500m school run with phone in one hand and kids running riot in the back. But with you I get the impression its more personal, like every woman is after you to suck out your vital energy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:18 pm
Not at all.They will be discussing the "value" of Religion.(Or should be).

SDers have nowhere to go except ALL the way.They must say that art is merely "autonomous sensation."They must say that "feeling" cannot be taught.Indeed that there is no such thing absolutely but only something which can be structured by chemicals and to order.
Whatever one says about religious tradition it can't be denied that it teaches ways of feeling and is itself changed by those feelings acting back upon it and that these ways of feeling find their way into every aspect of life and into relationships.

What has the single impulse for mindless,progressive knowledge through the senses,knowledge arrested and ending in the senses, with mystic knowledge in disintegration and dissolution,to say about deep ways of feeling which enter every aspect of life and relationships?
Nothing is the only answer.Just bribes and punishments in the here and now to control 280m who are moving rapidly towards the personification of the selfish gene.And the intolerance and strut is there for all to see in even a small sample of SDers.

SD is an ALL OUT position.Religious tradition has proved itself accomodating to Science notwithstanding a few overly exaggerated mishaps
which could just as easily have been caused by turf wars as anything else.

How does a SAD have sex?Scientifically of course.
0 Replies
 
 

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