@Frank Apisa,
Quote:I decided a couple days ago to take you off IGNORE, Leadfoot. I do not remember what it was that caused me to put you on...I very, very seldom use the IGNORE function. Gonna see how things go.
I just read your bio...and we do have more parallels than you suppose. I also have always been interested in flying (I've flown the Cessna 140 and the Piper Cherokee). I also worked for Lockheed Martin for a short while . For me the question of "What is "all this" about?" is the Ultimate Question...and the one that interests me the most.
I have not read anything you've written for years before this week...and I do not remember your position on the issues being discussed here, but I seriously doubt I found them "abhorrent."
Give me an idea of where you are at regarding the existence of gods in the "all this." Let's see if we can have a reasonable discussion.
Good to hear from you Frank. Yes, more parallels than I imagined.
I’ll try to keep it short but a little background for context is necessary.
My quest to find what this was all about started with my first remembered coherent thought at age six or seven. The reason I can’t be sure is that ‘special occasions' were not observed in any way in the 'family' I grew up in. It was not religious, never lived in one place for more than a year and there was no physical abuse. I was fed and clothed but otherwise my upbringing could best be described as ‘benign neglect'. I had no conception of family and no reason to think my life was any different than others. The first time I remember meeting people other than my parents was in school. I should also mention that although I didn’t know until I was around fifty, I am on the same place on 'the spectrum' as Edgar.
Back to that first thought.
It happened while I was walking home from school. Probably because I had spent very little time outside thus far, I noticed both man made things (buildings, cars, sidewalk, etc) and 'Nature' for the first time. No big thing; I simply made the observation that Nature was more cunningly put together than even the man made things that impressed me so much. I did not recognize it as a Spiritual experience although in retrospect, maybe it was. It was obvious to me that there was an intelligence of awesome ability behind the scenes and I desperately wanted to know 'it'. I had no conception of 'God' at the time.
Soon after that I was mystified when I discovered nobody else was remotely curious about it. I still am to this day.
The other discovery I made soon after that was at a drive-in movie. My father was almost never there so I guess taking us to get an ice cream or a movie on those rare occasions was his way of fulfilling his family duties. I don’t recall a single conversation with either him or my mother beyond simple instructions (come eat, go to bed, etc) until I was an adult.
I’ve used the word a few times here but the discovery I made that night in the back seat watching Disney's “Bambi” WAS 'Family'. The idea of having a partner in life that wanted to talk about what they were thinking with you, do things together, take care of each other, OMG! I was ecstatic about the concept!
My parents seemed uninterested in it as we drove home in silence as usual but I was filled with hope. 'Family' became my 'God' that night and remained so for the next sixty years. I’m surprised I didn’t eventually become a Mormon or JW since that is their god too. I quit on that 'god' some nine years ago and repented for having that god before me.
But before that, I did eventually hear about the ‘religious god' and that too was exciting, especially since people told me that 'Family' was god's plan for us. That was supposed to be how we get to know him. I tried a few churches in my twenties, expecting to find others to discuss these all important ideas. I was invariably met with a brick wall when I tried. I was excommunicated in one way or another from each one. I could have become disillusioned at that point but my ego or something led me to assume that it was their failure, not mine.
Spiritual experiences rarely convince anyone nor do I expect them to so I’ll hold them for another time. Not that it is any more effective in convincing anyone else, but the scientific evidence has become so undeniable to me that even if I though God was pure evil (which I did at one point), I could not pretend he doesn’t exist. I have been asked about it a few times so I sat down to explain that evidence in the simplest way possible while using the fewest technical terms I could. I’ve posted it before but you probably didn’t see it. FWIW, here it is. I have always invited serious criticism but so far only get insults (What a load of crap, etc).
Quote:Re: Biological life Farmer said:
“yeh, all it takes are astronomical numbers of incidents ovr astronomical timelines (like deeep time , or anything over a BILLION years or so), and its almost a given .”
Leadfoot replied:
Just for the record, here's why I don’t believe it's 'almost a given'.
The simplest example that illustrates the basic problem of 'accidental life' is to understand what a protein is and how it is made. Search 'life of the cell' on YouTube for visual references to proteins. Without at least some grasp of proteins, a simple explanation is impossible. A protein in biology has little to do with the dietary term 'protein' so don’t think 'the stuff in meat'.
There are thousands of different types of proteins for doing different jobs in a cell. Anything that happens or gets done inside a cell is done either directly or indirectly by a protein. It is the most basic functional unit in a cell.
A protein is a molecular machine. I use the term 'machine' because of its interrelated combination of chemical, electrical and mechanical characteristics and the fact that it is very specific and functional.
A protein is made of amino acids. Amino acids are called the 'building blocks of life' for this reason. Making these 'building blocks' in the lab is as close to creating life as we have come, even though amino acids can potentially form naturally. This is why one theory of life emerging is called 'protein world' since it seems logical that the 'simpler' protein came before the far more complex cell.
There are hundreds of different amino acids and each one comes in right and left handed versions (mirror images). Proteins are made of only 20 of them and all are left handed. This creates a problem for 'naturally occurring' proteins because if you mix in any of the other amino acids, or even a single right handed one of the 20, the protein is broken and will not function. And there is no mechanism in nature to prevent such contamination. But we are not yet to the real reason why biological life had to be designed.
Each protein starts out as a very specifically ordered chain of amino acids between about 150 and 3500 long, depending on the protein. They do not function in this string form. In order to be functional, they must be 'folded' into a complex physical three dimensional shape, which is another barrier to 'natural' life forming. But we are still not at the crux of the problem.
Let’s say that in spite of the odds, the right order of only the correct amino acids does link up by chance. Let us further say that they accidentally fold into the correct functional configuration. If you are into math, the chances of that happening have been calculated at 1 in 10^77. For perspective, there are about 10^50 atoms in the entire planet of earth. But still, we are not at the bottom of the problem.
Remember that we are only talking about a protein so far. it takes hundreds to thousands of different proteins working in a coordinated fashion to make a single cell function. But for now let's ignore the mathematical improbability of that first protein and the hundreds of others needed.
You have probably noticed that I have not mentioned DNA yet. It is the nature of what DNA is that makes accidental life virtually impossible. Bill Gates compared DNA to a computer operating system, only DNA is far more complicated. It is the most complicated thing we know of and we have only begun to understand just how complex it is.
But it is NOT the complexity itself that explains why it had to be designed. It is the multiple hierarchical levels of symbolic representation in DNA that demands a design. DNA has a LANGUAGE with syntax, words, punctuation, definitions, etc.
Here is the breaking point. It is possible for a human mind to imagine something as complex as a protein forming as a result of naturally occurring chemical processes even if the odds are vanishingly small. Then multiply that by the thousands of protein types needed. Still you could say, well given enough time, multiple universes, etc. it could happen. It sounds desperate to me but You can’t say the odds are zero. I should add that even the 'evolution explains everything' crowd can’t defend this 'Protein World' scenario, so they usually default to something like 'RNA world' as a precursor to first living cell. RNA is basically half of a DNA strand.
But to accept that this happened by random chance you would have to believe the following:
By random linking up of nucleotides (the four molecules that are in DNA), a machine language containing the words, letters, syntax and punctuation necessary for defining all the needed proteins for 'life' came about. Notice that I said 'defining' the proteins, not the proteins themselves or even the amino acids needed to make a protein.
To over simplify, DNA is a ‘recipe', an ordered list of instructions and ingredients on how to build thousands of different proteins. DNA itself cannot do anything with these instructions. In order to be built, the DNA instructions have to be transferred to a Ribosome, which in turn is a very complex protein itself (hopefully you see the chicken and egg problem here).
The Ribosome reads the symbolic list of the recipe and begins gathering the required amino acids called for in the list. It assembles the amino acids into a string in the order specified in the DNA strand sent to it. (in the form of what’s called ‘messenger RNA')
After the amino acids are strung together, Some simpler proteins will spontaneously fold into their final three dimensional shape but most require yet other proteins to actively form them in the correct way. If they are not folded correctly they will not function and are often toxic.
Hopefully you followed that but to summarize, complex combinations of amino acids are possible given enough time and material. The odds are not what I would call possible but you can’t say that a protein by accident is impossible, in spite of its complexity.
What cannot be reasonably believed is that 'nature' took that first accidental protein and then invented a symbolic language (encoded in DNA) that was able to be read and executed by yet another different protein in order to make more proteins.
A protein by accident - maybe.
A symbolic language describing all the needed proteins for life and simultaneously a molecular machine that understands that language and able to build according to the instructions by accident? - Nope.
It is the symbolic nature of DNA's language that required 'design'.
