Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

@cicerone imposter,

That is true. However, i couldn't use a science book to comprehend true genuine spiritual/psychological matters such as realising the value of human life, only Christianity could do that for me, not a science book.

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@layman,

layman wrote:

Quote:
Well, you COULD study population genetics.

It's population genetics that's telling us how unlikely it is for a "positively selected" trait to become fixed, aincha heard?

From the peer-reviewed article I just quoted from:

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For example, simple models of natural selection made the obviously unrealistic, but mathematically convenient, assumption of an infinite population size. When Sewall Wright examined population genetics in finite populations, thereby discovering the important process known as genetic drift, his results were dismissed as a mere curiosity of limited real-world value, since most natural populations were assumed to be very large (Fisher and Ford 1950).

Exactly the kinda thing Gould accused Dawkins of doing, eh?

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Beginning in the mid-1950’s, Kimura (1955, 1957, 1964) examined the consequences of finite population size not only for genetic drift but also for natural selection. Perhaps because of the advanced mathematics used in this work, it attracted relatively little attention among evolutionary biologists until Kimura (1968) proposed the radically new hypothesis that genetic drift is the dominant process in evolution both within populations and over evolutionary time (the “Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution”).

Population genetics gives you different answers when you ridiculously assume that populations sizes are INFINITE as opposed to when you use practical figures for population size. But, that may not be "convenient" for some, eh?

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@layman,

layman wrote:

It's population genetics that's telling us how unlikely it is for a "positively selected" trait to become fixed, aincha heard?

Ya coulda heard, if ya wanted, ya know? I just got through quoting Lynch as follows:

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Most aspects of evolution at the genome level cannot be fully explained in adaptive terms, and moreover, that many features could not have emerged without a near-complete disengagement of the power of natural selection. This contention is supported by a wide array of comparative data, as well as by well-established principles of population genetics.

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So much the worse for the facts, eh?:

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Darwin made his break with the scientific method very clear by stating –

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“I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.”( 1857) “What you hint at generally is very, very true: that my work is grievously hypothetical, and large parts are by no means worthy of being called induction.” (1859)

Not to worry, eh? Who needs facts when you have non-inductive, hypothetical deductive reasoning based on a priori premises:

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Darwin was concerned about the effect of abandoning the scientific method. To console Darwin, just two weeks before the publication of The Origin of Species in 1859, Erasmus Darwin, his brother wrote:

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“In fact, the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that if the facts [evidence] won’t fit, why so much the worse for the facts, in my feeling.”

Just don't tell those damn IDer's, eh? They might get the idea that they too are doing "science."

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@Amoh5,

Sorry for this diversion from the topic of this thread but:

Amoh4 wrote:

However, i couldn't use a science book to comprehend true genuine spiritual/psychological matters such as realising the value of human life, only Christianity could do that for me, not a science book.

Only if you pick and choose. There is plenty in the christian bible that does not value human life (or at least not that of non-christians). (see the gospel of John's take on the jews.

I would argue that your values come from somewhere else, but you recognise them in certain parts of the bible. If you were to take all the bible literally I don't think you'd be a good person.

Besides, as soon as you say 'value' what part does science have to play? Value is obviously subjective, and not axiomatic - it's out of the scope of science. Currently, anyway.

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@layman,

Quote:

Darwin was concerned about the effect of abandoning the scientific method. To console Darwin, just two weeks before the publication of The Origin of Species in 1859, Erasmus Darwin, his brother wrote:

Quote:
“In fact, the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that if the facts [evidence] won’t fit, why so much the worse for the facts, in my feeling.”

Just don't tell those damn IDer's, eh? They might get the idea that they too are doing "science."

Actually, the IDer Steve Meyers, who has a PhD in the philosophy of science from Cambridge, says Darwin was using a "scientific method." He points out that, with historical sciences, you can, at best, postdict, not predict. The method, he says, is called the one of "competing hypotheses." He claims he uses the same method Darwin did.

Is any of it science? You decide, eh?

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@layman,

Quote:

Suppose there is a population of about 5 billion people. Now suppose one person is born with a "superior" trait.

Now do the math. What would it take for that one trait to become "fixed" in the population? What would it take, in other words, for all the others with "lesser" traits, who have been surviving just fine, to "die out" so that ONLY that one recently created trait prevails in the entire population? How is that one innovation ever going to completely "take over" and change the entire population? Hmmmm?

Depends. What if that person were Genghis Cohen?

Ive been giving you credit for being at least smart enough to understand the stuff youve posted. Apparently I was wrong.
Think back to what Sean Carroll sid (And I quoted).

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@layman,

Kimuras math nd conxeptual model was all wrong and he admitted it (just like Haldane).
You seem to be slipping into the nest where neutralism predominates.
You think that the ascent of WHales was a continuing neutrality ?
Really?
wow, Another bridge needs buying.

The concept pf "bad genes" and "genes with no conferrel f advantge" is pld stuff and hs been accepted for years. Dont be so quick to dismiss naturl selection especially since you cannot post anything approximating evidence.
(Like I asked.)

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@layman,

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If there's a way to detect the possibility of natural selection at work,

I think you just red cereal boxes and schlep clips from Creationist newsletters. Stupid question.

PS the quote you sid was incoherent says more about your lack of comprehension than what Sean Carroll wrote. It was perfectly clear to the rest of the world.

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@farmerman,

sorry bout my typing skills today. Im using both hands to hold crutches so Im not using my wooden glove " computer pick".

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@farmerman,

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Dont be so quick to dismiss naturl selection especially since you cannot post anything approximating evidence. (Like I asked.)

Apparently you don't care to watch the Lynch video I posted (chock full of evidence) I posted, or read any of the peer-reviewed articles I have posted (chock full of citations to professional sources), eh, Farmer. What is it you want evidence of, exactly? Evidence of natural selection being the driving force of evolution? Sorry, don't have it. Nobody does, according to those experts.

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@layman,

Translation -

I don't believe your evidence therefor you should believe my lack of evidence.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

PS the quote you sid was incoherent says more about your lack of comprehension than what Sean Carroll wrote. It was perfectly clear to the rest of the world.

Hehehehe, really? Here it is, verbatim:

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"Kimuras "so called neutral theory" is that it provides a baseline assumption of how DNA should change as a function of time,if no other force intervenes .

I challenge you to find anyone with an IQ about that of a potato chip who will say that's a coherent sentence.

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@farmerman,

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You think that the ascent of WHales was a continuing neutrality ?

You don't seem to understand what the neutralists are sayin, eh, Farmer. I quoted Lynch (and others) on this point, but of course you don't even read that.

Let me ask you: Do you think a bacteria turned into a whale by way of mindless atoms randomly and accidentally crashing into each other in the void? Does that sound plausible to you, does it?

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@layman,

no YOU are the onje who is not understanding the point. Read some more biology Lamont, then we will talk.

Argue a fossil record for biogeographic distribution (Dont worry about parallel gene transfer at the ARchea/eukarya level-thats verrrry old news)

I think you just cop clips without reading anything for understanding. If its just quote mining, I get it. Dont try to make it sound like theres a war going on..

Rad Sean Carrols quote a few times and then say a perfect act of contrition. Ive gotta hos a webinar in an hour and I keep getting these dings from you and your sockpuppet (although you better explain to him (if you know), his errors of understanding-it isnt my job)

Indohyus a beagle sized ungulate (think little pig) began to claim as part of its domain the changing aquatic environs near the (today) Pakistan proto-Indian Gulf in an environment like the Sunderbans . (Thick bones-dense ear , . A few million tyars later, in the same area,Rhodocetus appeared. She was even more adapted to a trnsgressing marine environment. (Sorta like a polar bear has ADAPTED to a marine ice cap environment and may go extinct or will adapt to an even MORE marine environment). Follwed in another 6 million years by basilosaurus (not a dinosaur just a dumb name)

Looking at lst common ancestors of everything , I suppose eukaryota would suffice.
The biologists have been contaminated by the mathematical geneticists and , like any other computer dqeeb who has but one tool, ( keyboard) they see all their answers as bytes.

Scotts opinion on the "synthesis" she speaks of, considers the findings of paleo; the discoveries about extinctions role(not mass extinctions whhich are bad for everyones day);The role of exaptations; genetics; and paleoecology.

After all, it was Darwin who forst concluded about "neutral theory" (except he didnt call it that). He also proposed several means of evolution BESIDES natural selection.
Ill stick with Darwin, it one of the problems with unerstanding it too much and not Quote mining without any purpose save creating a ruckus in the house.

Ill still try to be courteous as I am able to be (as long as my avuncular patience prevails)

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Ya know, Farmer, if some kid who had seen a lotta cars moving around asked me to explain them to him, and if I then proceeded along these lines: Cars are composed of atoms, which make up molecules, which form chemicals, and there is a table of elements which lists all the elementary combinations, and....I started reciting the table of elements, and ****.....

That kid might think I misunderstood the question.

And ya know what? He would be right.

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@layman,

You have it backwsrds; evolution is the driving force of natural selection. As the environment changes, so does the biology.

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@layman,

See, youre assuming you know about cars but all youve got is a bunch of loose unbound pages from Hemming's , so you can pull anything out of your ass and claim theres a big fight over car designs.
BTW if you insist that I dont understand your question, try answering mine. Im patient, but not eternally.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

BTW if you insist that I dont understand your question, try answering mine.

I asked you about 4 times now, Farmer: What the hell is your question?

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@layman,

Know what you mean there layman. I've told farmerman numerous times that I've read, acknowledged and answered the points he brings up but he just pretends I've just stuck my fingers in my ears and said 'I can't hear you'.

Nothing like accusing your opponent of the very thing you are guilty of, eh?

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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