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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Nice! Landing is always the hard part, but very satisfying when you get it just right.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 11:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I've pointed out a few improbabilities but never impossibilities
How did you handle the "Improbability of the auto catalysis of various length RNA chains? Or do you just ignore that as irrelevant to your worldview?
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 11:55 am
@farmerman,
Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"I've pointed out a few improbabilities but never impossibilities"

How did you handle the "Improbability of the auto catalysis of various length RNA chains? Or do you just ignore that as irrelevant to your worldview?

When that discussion came up I gave away the farm. Ignored all the obstacles and granted that unlimited (but random) auto catalysis was a given.

Tried to calculate the odds for the ordered pairs for the simplest self reproducing organism known (supplied by Parados). I say 'tried' because even in scientific notation my computer could not handle numbers that large or small so I was limited to 500 pairs, an unrealistically short chain. Even at that, the chances of a random chance chain with a specified order worked out to less than 1 in a number larger than the number of atoms in the known universe. From memory, something like 1 chance in 4,3 * 10^301.

Not impossible, but highly improbable. I'll look up the actual calculated answer if you're really interested.
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 11:57 am
@Leadfoot,
if youve accepted ribozyme reaction then youve reduced the "probability" to 1.

Im not sure you and I are even on the same melon truck.

Leadfoot
 
  0  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 12:12 pm
@farmerman,
Don't agree with your 'calculation', but like I said, for the purposes of that discussion I 'gave away the farm'. The whole picture is obviously way more problematic.

Note: plugged in correct numbers in previous post.
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 01:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
How can you not agree when you went back to a "given activity for RNA", thats all it does.!!! RNA does not need any ribose "ladders" to catalyze or link its chains . We have a Nobel Prize awarded for two scientists who discovered the chemistry of RNA. Its really as strait forward as oxidation/reduction. So you think God's in charge of rusting iron??

Thats why I know were not speaking of the same things

Leadfoot
 
  0  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 01:30 pm
@farmerman,
What I was agreeing to in the original discussion was actually a different mechanism for DNA/RNA assembly that Parados proposed but even with the existence of catalyzing ribosomes (which is a far stretch indeed) you still don't have the information to assemble more complex RNA/DNA in the required order. The RNA world hypothesis has been largely dismissed BTW.

It is the 'information' at the heart of the discussion, not the ability to link nucleotides. You are back to chance there.
McGentrix
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 01:37 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

The RNA world hypothesis has been largely dismissed BTW.


Shocked It has?
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 02:26 pm
@McGentrix,
only by creationists who cant understand why anyone would be doing research.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 02:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
And you are back to arguing that only one possible outcome could be reproducing and there is only one attempt to do that. It was pointed out to you then you simply designed your assumption to reach your conclusion.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 02:42 pm
@Leadfoot,
SO now we. Which came first
Which came first, chains of nucleotides on sugars or somatic cells? In your worldview we must dismiss the Nobel comittee!!>

PS how about a cell wall?

Quote:
(which is a far stretch indeed
. Keep showing your Creationist beliefs.

I dont think youre a pillock. You seem educable. Here go chase this down. Its almost 30 years old nd weve learned so much in the interim.

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1989/



0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 03:57 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I love Brit insult names like" I cant decide whether Frank is a pillock or merely a wazzak"


Of course you can't decide - he's actually a gobshite.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 06:47 pm
@ farmerman:

Neither of us are researchers in the field so we have to rely on the experts and much later papers (2012) on RNA world detail the problems with it. Harold Barnhardt ( not an ID advocate) noted a lot of the problems with it and he accepts it ONLY because it's the only thing abiogenesis has to hang it's hat on.

Charles Carter (also not an ID advocate) has his take on it and he dismisses it completely.

Quote:

Harold C. Bernhardt notes that "Catalysis is a relatively rare property of long RNA sequences only," and he offers a nice discussion of the gross improbability of randomly producing a long, self-replicating RNA molecule:

The RNA world hypothesis has been criticized because of the belief that long RNA sequences are needed for catalytic activity, and for the enormous numbers of randomized sequences required to isolate catalytic and binding functions using in vitro selection. For example, the best ribozyme replicase created so far -- able to replicate an impressive 95-nucleotide stretch of RNA -- is ~190 nucleotides in length, far too long a sequence to have arisen through any conceivable process of random assembly. And typically 10,000,000,000,000-1,000,000,000,000,000 randomized RNA molecules are required as a starting point for the isolation of ribozymic and/or binding activity in in vitro selection experiments, completely divorced from the probable prebiotic situation.

Charles Carter, in Biology Direct, said:
Quote:

"I, for one, have never subscribed to this view of the origin of life, and I am by no means alone. The RNA world hypothesis is driven almost entirely by the flow of data from very high technology combinatorial libraries, whose relationship to the prebiotic world is anything but worthy of "unanimous support". There are several serious problems associated with it, and I view it as little more than a popular fantasy"

These arguments directly parallels ID proponents who observe that it's extremely unlikely for an RNA molecule with just the right nucleotide sequence needed for self-replication to arise by chance. In other words, he's making the information sequence challenge to the origin of life.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 06:54 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:

Quote:
I love Brit insult names like" I cant decide whether Frank is a pillock or merely a wazzak"


Of course you can't decide - he's actually a gobshite.

Wow, these are really convincing arguments guys. What is this, grade school?
hingehead
 
  1  
Thu 29 Oct, 2015 08:10 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Wow, these are really convincing arguments guys. What is this, grade school?


You yelling at a mirror, LF?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 30 Oct, 2015 05:19 am
@hingehead,
Quote:

You yelling at a mirror, LF?
I was referring to the juvenile name calling, but I suspect you can't keep up with the real arguments. Did you understand the troubles with RNA World? Have a rebuttal?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:20 am
@Leadfoot,
One has to wonder if you bother to read what you post Leadfoot.

Quote:
able to replicate an impressive 95-nucleotide stretch of RNA -- is ~190 nucleotides in length


I'll leave you to look at that compared to your claim of needing 500 when you made an assumption to try to show us math.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 30 Oct, 2015 09:44 am
@parados,
My dear parados, the best it was able to do was 95 nucleotides. That's an argument AGAINST 'RNA World because the '95' was NOT a self reproducing organism, just a string of RNA.

For those not familiar with the terms (like parados) the RNA catalysts are like 'sissors and paste' tools, able to snip and attach sections of PRE-EXISTING RNA code segments and they aren't very good at that. Existing Cells use proteins to do the job which are far more effective and complex. Neither have the ability to design anything however. The design came from elsewhere.

BTW, it was YOU who supplied the 'simplest self-reproducing organism' back when we were discussing it (because you didn't like my choice of e-coli bacteria) and from memory it had something like 1500 pairs in its DNA. I didn't fact check your claim but accepted your choice.
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 30 Oct, 2015 10:27 am
@parados,
actually the Cech models reduced that to 30-40 (without ribose "ladders),
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 30 Oct, 2015 10:48 am
@Leadfoot,
My dear leadfoot. Do you not understand what happens to the probability when you introduce an already completed 95 nucleotide string into 500 sequence probability? Now what happens if you have multiple strings of different lengths being replicated as well? Perhaps you can tell us.

Replication doesn't require that it be self reproducing to evolve. Errors in replication can occur in any replication. We see there exist RNA strings that can produce multiple stings that are essentially the same or with slight variations depending on errors. Those strings can combine.

What are you talking about design? There is design in randomness?
 

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