97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Mon 29 Oct, 2012 06:09 pm
@reasoning logic,
At 40+ minutes you needn't have any doubts rl.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Mon 29 Oct, 2012 06:13 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
At 40+ minutes you needn't have any doubts rl.


I guess you were able to acknowledge my awareness of you attention deficit?
spendius
 
  -1  
Mon 29 Oct, 2012 06:21 pm
@reasoning logic,
The self-reassuring assertion in petticoats. Again.

Does it not bother you that you are making up your own compliments?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 04:45 pm
Quote:
Judge backs NASA lab in intelligent-design case
(The Associated Press, November 6, 2012)

A California judge has tentatively ruled in favor of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in a wrongful-termination lawsuit brought by a former computer specialist who alleged he was singled out in part because of his belief in intelligent design.

Superior Court Judge Ernest Hiroshige issued a tentative ruling Nov. 1 saying he was leaning toward finding in favor of JPL, which had argued at trial that David Coppedge was let go because he was combative and did not keep his skills sharp, not because of his belief that life is too complex to have developed through evolution alone.

Hiroshige, who presided over the civil trial in April, ordered a final ruling drawn up and distributed within 30 days.

Coppedge, a self-described evangelical Christian, had worked on NASA’s Cassini mission to explore Saturn for 15 years until he was dismissed in 2011. His attorney, William Becker, argued that Coppedge was let go because he advocated for intelligent design in the workplace, handed out DVDs on the theory and argued with a colleague about Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage in California.

In his lawsuit, Coppedge claimed he was demoted in 2009 and then let go for engaging his co-workers in conversations about his views.

Becker argued at trial that a supervisor told Coppedge to “stop pushing your religion,” and that Coppedge was retaliated against for disputing a written warning and filing a lawsuit against the lab.

The case has been closely followed by intelligent-design supporters, but Becker said the one-paragraph tentative ruling should not be seen as a referendum on the theory.

“It does not specify the court’s reasoning and it would be foolhardy to discern from its general language that the court had anything to say about the validity of intelligent design as a scientific theory or as a religious belief,” Becker said. “We don’t believe it was about religious belief, but David’s co-workers perceived it as [such] and that’s equally offensive under the law.”

At trial, JPL attorney Cameron Fox contended Coppedge was a stubborn and disconnected employee who decided not to heed warnings to get additional training, even when it became clear the Cassini mission would be downsized and computer-specialist positions eliminated.

Coppedge often was confrontational and insensitive to customers and colleagues, who had complained about his behavior and his advocacy of intelligent design, Fox said.

Coppedge is active in the intelligent-design sphere and runs a website that interprets scientific discoveries through the lens of intelligent design. His father wrote an anti-evolution book and founded a Christian outreach group. Coppedge also is a board member for Illustra Media, a company that produces video documentaries examining the scientific evidence for intelligent design. The company produces the videos that Coppedge was handing out to co-workers, Becker said.
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 05:29 pm
@wandeljw,
Not too much information other than the decision. Id love to see Coppedge's filing against JPL and the sub plot.
Im gonna go look up anything about illustra Media . I wonder what Coppedges blog site is called?

farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 05:37 pm
@farmerman,
HERES THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE's TAKE ON THIS

Quote:
Summary



David Coppedge was an information technology specialist and system administrator on JPL’s international Cassini mission to Saturn, the most ambitious interplanetary exploration ever launched. A division of California Institute of Technology, JPL operates under a contract with the federal space agency. Coppedge held the title of “Team Lead” System Administrator on the mission until his supervisors demoted and humiliated him for advancing ideas that superiors labeled “unwelcome” and “disruptive.” Ultimately they fired him. Demotion and termination led to a lawsuit and trial. The latter concluded in April, 2012. The trial court announced on October 31, 2012, its intention to rule in JPL’s favor within 30 days.



News on the Coppedge Case

Former NASA specialist claims he was fired over intelligent design
Associated Press, March 11, 2012
Design flaw? A fired NASA employee says he was let go because of his belief in intelligent design
World Magazine, February 16, 2011
Intelligent Design Proponent Fired from NASA Lab
The Christian Post, January 26, 2011
JPL worker sues over intelligent design demotion
Associated Press, April 19, 2010
Intelligent Design proponent who works at JPL says he experienced religious discrimination
San Gabriel Valley Tribune, April 18, 2010
Discrimination Lawsuit Filed against NASA’s Jet Propulsion Lab for Harassing and Demoting Supporter of Intelligent Design
Discovery Institute, April 14, 2010

Additional articles about Coppedge Case

Commentary on the Trial and the Evidence in Coppedge Case:

Due Process Denied: Evidence Challenges JPL's Testimony about Timing of Decision to Demote David Coppedge
>> April 17, 2012: JPL manager Clark Burgess's false claims, given in testimony, appear to be an attempt to rewrite history.


The Trial of David v. Goliath Jet Propulsion Lab Concludes
>> April 16, 2012: The case, as opposed to the trial, is a long way from being over.


Ignorance Isn't Bliss: Coppedge's Accusers Don't Understand Intelligent Design
>> April 16, 2012: David Coppedge was surrounded by people on the Cassini project who hadn't studied ID, and knew virtually nothing about it, but were generally hostile towards ID, and despite their self-confessed ignorance, are sure it's a religious viewpoint.


David Coppedge's Jet Propulsion Lab Accusers Consistently Saying Inconsistent Things
>> April 13, 2012: Apparently Weisenfelder has no problem when political views are expressed at work, so long as she agrees with them.


Into the Bureaucratic Nightmare of "Human Resources": How JPL's Investigation Denied Fairness and Due Process to David Coppedge
>> March 28, 2012: We have all heard stories of someone who went to the DMV and encountered an employee who just didn't care about helping to solve some problem.


Getting to "You're Fired": The Final Days of an Intelligent Design Advocate at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab
>> March 27, 2012: His last performance review shows Coppedge's supervisors and colleagues with (almost) all their knives out for him.


Performance Reviews Support David Coppedge's Claim that NASA Punished Him for Advocating Intelligent Design
>> March 22, 2012: "In a brutal take-no-prisoners style, JPL's legal team has done everything it can to impeach Coppedge's account of himself."


Portrait of a "Harrasser"? Or an Innocent Victim of Bias Against Intelligent Design? In Testimony from Co-workers at JPL, the Real David Coppedge Stands Up
>> April 4, 2012: An illuminating example of how Big Science enforces the "consensus," that we keep hearing so much about from Darwin defenders, against intelligent design.


The Deep, Dark Secret of NASA's Big, Bad Scary Pro-Intelligent Design Harasser David Coppedge: He's Shy
>> March 15, 2012: Jet Propulsion Laboratory has the burden of showing that Coppedge engaged in "harassment," that he "targeted" co-workers.


What Exactly Is Being Decided in the David Coppedge "Intelligent Design" Trial
>> March 13, 2012: Opening statements wrapped up today and one thing is beyond doubt: this trial will be misrepresented in the media.


What David Coppedge Has Already Accomplished by Going to Trial, Even Before Opening Statements
>> March 13, 2012: There has been tremendous international media attention to this story, reasonably fair and factual.


In the David Coppedge Trial, Intelligent Design Is Where the Threads All Intersect
>> March 14, 2012: Never did NASA's JPL forbid expressions of contempt for ID. JPL only forbade expressions of support for ID.


An Alcatraz of the Mind: What the Coppedge Trial Will Show
>> March 8, 2012: Let's take a moment to recall the realities of the world of science.


Why the Coppedge Trial Matters
>> March 6, 2012: Each Sternberg affair, each Gaskell case, each Coppedge trial is like a tile in a mosaic.


Trial to Begin in Intelligent Design Discrimination Lawsuit against NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab
>> March 5, 2012: Trial begins this week in a lawsuit over whether NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab (JPL) unlawfully discriminated against an employee for discussing the scientific theory of intelligent design (ID) at work.


Please, NASA, No More Galileos!
>> November 24, 2011: The David Coppedge case stands as an egregious instance of intolerance toward scientific dissent, so much so that it merits your attention and action, for Caltech runs JPL under contract with NASA, a government agency, and is thus indirectly accountable to the electorate, by which I mean you, dear reader.


The Perverse Logic of Jet Propulsion Laboratory's "Origins Program"
>> November 22, 2011: NASA's JPL asks "How did we get here?" but adjudicates the question before the evidence it seeks has even come in.


Why Did NASA's JPL Discriminate Against David Coppedge and Why Does It Matter?
>> November 22, 2011: In the context of ID-suppression cases, this one could be big.


Judge Sends NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab to Jury Trial for Firing Employee Who Discussed Intelligent Design
>> November 21, 2011: "The upcoming JPL trial will remind employers that it is costly to discriminate against ID in the workplace."


Coppedge Lawsuit Against NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab Amended to Allege Wrongful Termination
>> March 11, 2011: In light of his being fired in January, David Coppedge's discrimination lawsuit against Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) has been amended to allege wrongful termination.


Protest David Coppedge's Persecution, Direct to NASA!
>> January 27, 2011: Get ready now to call (preferably) or at least email Charles Bolden, NASA's administrator, to express your outrage at the fact that Coppedge was fired this week. Here's that contact information: phone: 202-358-1010; email: [email protected]


NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab Fires Cassini Mission Senior Computer Admin Who Filed Discrimination Lawsuit
>> January 25, 2011: NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) just dumped a lot of fuel on the fire of David Coppedge's discrimination lawsuit by firing him on Monday. Coppedge's lawsuit against JPL alleges discrimination because he was prevented from talking about intelligent design (ID).


Correcting Myths About Coppedge’s Intelligent Design Discrimination Lawsuit
>> April 28, 2010: No one told Coppedge to stop discussing ID or giving out these DVDs until March, 2009. And when he was told to stop, he stopped.


Commentary on Media Coverage of the Case:

The Los Angeles Times Grasps the Heart of the David Coppedge Case
May 2, 2012: Here's a fact that will not go away, regardless of how Judge Hiroshige rules.


At the Coppedge Trial, a Reporter Gets the Main Point
>> March 19, 2012: The bit about the holiday party, by the way, is one that we have not covered yet here at ENV.


"Reporting" on the David Coppedge Trial, Time Magazine Joins the JPL Legal Team
>> March 19, 2012: Why bother having a trial at all?


On David Coppedge Trial, Darwin Bloggers Groping Their Way in the Dark
> March 15, 2012: At the Darwin-defending group blog Panda's Thumb, Nick Matzke and his friends are enjoying a discussion of the Coppedge trial even as they admit that they know hardly anything about the facts.


David Coppedge and Attorney Take His Case to the Court of Public Opinion
>> March 13, 2012: Today Coppedge and attorney William Becker were on Fox News. The appearance was short but informative.


Suspicious Circumstances Surrounding David Coppedge's Firing from JPL Explained in Fox News Interview
>> March 13, 2012: In a Fox News interview, David Coppedge and his attorney, William J. Becker Jr., explained the suspicious circumstances surrounding Coppedge's firing from Jet Propulsion Lab (JPL) last year.


Facts of the Coppedge Lawsuit Contradict the Spin from Jet Propulsion Lab and National Center for Science Education
>> March 12, 2012: Coppedge's former employer seeks to suppress the fullest airing of information.


Coppedge Trial Update: Fox News, AP, Washington Post, UCLA First Amendment Scholar Weigh In
>> March 11, 2012: Coppedge has waived his right to trial by jury and has elected to try the case before Judge Hiroshige who will decide all matters of fact and law.
At BioLogos, a Disregard for Truth about David Coppedge
>> BioLogos recapitulates false NCSE talking points about the Coppedge case before the evidence in the case is even revealed.


The ACLU Has a History of Advocating Disparate Treatment for Intelligent Design
>> April 27, 2010: JPL has no policy against talking about intelligent design (ID), and permits employees to express viewpoints that are hostile towards ID, but when an employee expresses pro-ID speech, he's suddenly harassed, investigated, demoted, and told to stop "pushing his religion."


Is Pro-Intelligent Design Speech During Work Hours “Not Included” in Protections Against Discrimination?
>> April 26, 2010: It's perfectly fine if JPL employees want to attack ID, but JPL cannot then suddenly start punishing those who support ID.


ACLU Lawyer and ScienceBloggers Make Off-Base Arguments Against Coppedge Case
>> April 21, 2010: Intelligent design is not religion, and nothing in the DVDs that Coppedge shared deals with religion. Even so, it's unlawful for an employer to discriminate against an employee based on what they deem is religion.
Related Articles

Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez and Academic Persecution at Iowa State University
Dr. Richard Sternberg and the Congressional Investigation into the Smithsonian Controversy
Biography

David Coppedge is an information technology specialist and high level system administrator at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California. Coppedge has worked on the international Cassini mission to Saturn at JPL since 1997, the most ambitious interplanetary exploration ever launched. In that capacity, he has a wide breadth of knowledge about technical aspects of Cassini's computers and networks and was heavily involved in all the mission operations. From 2000-2009, he held the title of “Team Lead System Administrator” on Cassini until his supervisors demoted and humiliated him for advancing handing out pro-intelligent design DVDs that were deemed “unwelcome” and “disruptive.” Coppedge has been a faithful and highly regarded JPL employee for many years, has led tours of the lab and has served as an outreach speaker presenting the Cassini findings to civic and astronomy clubs and school groups. Also actively involved in the intelligent design movement, Coppedge serves on the board of Illustra Media, which has produced videos such as Unlocking the Mystery of Life and The Privileged Planet—the very DVDs that his employer has tried to suppress at JPL.




If he didnt use his beliefs to substitute for the science in the public arena (tax funded portions) then he should have been able to practice anything he wished. Suppose hed been a prcatitioner of Santeria or he was Amish? Theres gotta be nmore involved here. The DI makes it look like he was entirely acting within his 1st Amendment rights
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 06:11 pm
@farmerman,
What is your opinion on the "handicap principle" in evolution fm?

Nutcase individuals whose motives are a complete mystery are neither here nor there. Apart from the legal fees aspect. Natch.

I'm off to watch the $3 billion charade work itself out. With queues like I have seen today the turnout in an election here would be less than 5%.
spendius
 
  -1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 06:14 pm
@spendius,
Jeeze--thumbed down in less than a minute suggests a hair-trigger emotional state.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2012 07:32 pm
@farmerman,
His employer argued that he was fired for being confrontational with coworkers and customers and for not getting training suggested to him for the changing skill requirements of his position.

Link to pdf copy of tentative ruling:
http://ncse.com/files/20121031_Ruling.pdf
spendius
 
  -1  
Fri 9 Nov, 2012 04:13 pm
@spendius,
What a to-do eh?

The claque promoting scientific objectivity, the fearless contemplation of reality, truth seeking and the precision of better predictions has gone all coy and feet shuffly when asked to comment on the "handicap principle" in evolution. And a very important principle it is in evolution.

I imagine it is one of the "controversial issues" which wande told us the senator from Texas had mentioned and had avoided expanding upon.

Certainly this untoward reticence of the scientific sensibility of the claque juxtaposed with making many a feast regarding allegations of a student having a cross burned on his arm in the back and beyond, and many another minor matter, gives ground for my suspicion that it is not the teaching of evolution that is being promoted at all. It is far more personal. Science being impersonal.

Science is having the piss taken out of it.

spendius
 
  -1  
Fri 9 Nov, 2012 04:17 pm
@spendius,
It seems to me without thinking about it too deeply that the handicap principle is the underlying cause of the deficit and the looming fiscal cliff.
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 9 Nov, 2012 06:03 pm
@spendius,
And there is the small matter of snake-oil salesmen (and in recent years saleswomen).

By referring to SOS and SOS-W disparagingly our claque of scientists has congratulated itself on exterminating them.

Being so naive as it obviously is our claque never considered that SOS a SOS-W might find science the cutting edge technology which made dark brown liquids with "shake the bottle" and "take three tablespoons five times daily" look like the phlogiston theory.

The idea that SOS and SOS-W would disappear after our claque had made disparaging references to them is dafter than the idea of the Holy Ghost by some considerable margin.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  4  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 02:20 am
@wandeljw,
HERES AN ARTICLE BY KRUGMAN THAT WAS IN THE TIMES ON WEDNESDAY. Its a review of the science beliefs of Mr Rubio

Its typical Krugman, A little science, a little comedy, nd all entertaining.

Quote:









Grand Old Planet

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: November 22, 2012





Earlier this week, GQ magazine published an interview with Senator Marco Rubio, whom many consider a contender for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination, in which Mr. Rubio was asked how old the earth is. After declaring “I’m not a scientist, man,” the senator went into desperate evasive action, ending with the declaration that “it’s one of the great mysteries.”

It’s funny stuff, and conservatives would like us to forget about it as soon as possible. Hey, they say, he was just pandering to likely voters in the 2016 Republican primaries — a claim that for some reason is supposed to comfort us.

But we shouldn’t let go that easily. Reading Mr. Rubio’s interview is like driving through a deeply eroded canyon; all at once, you can clearly see what lies below the superficial landscape. Like striated rock beds that speak of deep time, his inability to acknowledge scientific evidence speaks of the anti-rational mind-set that has taken over his political party.

By the way, that question didn’t come out of the blue. As speaker of the Florida House of Representatives, Mr. Rubio provided powerful aid to creationists trying to water down science education. In one interview, he compared the teaching of evolution to Communist indoctrination tactics — although he graciously added that “I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro.” Gee, thanks.

What was Mr. Rubio’s complaint about science teaching? That it might undermine children’s faith in what their parents told them to believe. And right there you have the modern G.O.P.’s attitude, not just toward biology, but toward everything: If evidence seems to contradict faith, suppress the evidence.

The most obvious example other than evolution is man-made climate change. As the evidence for a warming planet becomes ever stronger — and ever scarier — the G.O.P. has buried deeper into denial, into assertions that the whole thing is a hoax concocted by a vast conspiracy of scientists. And this denial has been accompanied by frantic efforts to silence and punish anyone reporting the inconvenient facts.

But the same phenomenon is visible in many other fields. The most recent demonstration came in the matter of election polls. Coming into the recent election, state-level polling clearly pointed to an Obama victory — yet more or less the whole Republican Party refused to acknowledge this reality. Instead, pundits and politicians alike fiercely denied the numbers and personally attacked anyone pointing out the obvious; the demonizing of The Times’s Nate Silver, in particular, was remarkable to behold.

What accounts for this pattern of denial? Earlier this year, the science writer Chris Mooney published “The Republican Brain,” which was not, as you might think, a partisan screed. It was, instead, a survey of the now-extensive research linking political views to personality types. As Mr. Mooney showed, modern American conservatism is highly correlated with authoritarian inclinations — and authoritarians are strongly inclined to reject any evidence contradicting their prior beliefs. Today’s Republicans cocoon themselves in an alternate reality defined by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page, and only on rare occasions — like on election night — encounter any hint that what they believe might not be true.

And, no, it’s not symmetric. Liberals, being human, often give in to wishful thinking — but not in the same systematic, all-encompassing way.

Coming back to the age of the earth: Does it matter? No, says Mr. Rubio, pronouncing it “a dispute amongst theologians” — what about the geologists? — that has “has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States.” But he couldn’t be more wrong.

We are, after all, living in an era when science plays a crucial economic role. How are we going to search effectively for natural resources if schools trying to teach modern geology must give equal time to claims that the world is only 6.000 years old? How are we going to stay competitive in biotechnology if biology classes avoid any material that might offend creationists?

And then there’s the matter of using evidence to shape economic policy. You may have read about the recent study from the Congressional Research Service finding no empirical support for the dogma that cutting taxes on the wealthy leads to higher economic growth. How did Republicans respond? By suppressing the report. On economics, as in hard science, modern conservatives don’t want to hear anything challenging their preconceptions — and they don’t want anyone else to hear about it, either.

So don’t shrug off Mr. Rubio’s awkward moment. His inability to deal with geological evidence was symptomatic of a much broader problem — one that may, in the end, set America on a path of inexorable decline.
spendius
 
  0  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 06:35 am
@farmerman,
Forgive me if I am wrong, fm, but I understood that you are a man-made global warming denier.

Bur really old boy!! The text for today on which this Ivory Tower academic bases his somewhat silly and very superficial sermon on is nothing but an age-old chestnut asked by a magazine which has no other purpose than to entertain not unlike a busker in a subway underpass with a cap containing small change at his feet.

I gather GQ is oriented towards younger readers and presents a "casual style" as one might therefore expect. It's chief speciality is metrosexuality. Another metropolis rag.

What we want to know is your evolutionist position on the Handicap Principle and the eradication of religious institutions.

It is no use offering us screeds on the suppression of evidence and the GOP being "deeper in denial" when you back away from answers to those questions and when it is well known that significant numbers of your general coterie have me on Ignore because they don't wish to consider the points I raise.

Scientifically nobody knows the age of the earth. Nor will ever do. Mr Rubio is right to say that it is a great mystery. Nobody knows what the speed of light squared means either apart from it being an image of "a lot".

What the Republicans encountered on election night was nearly 60, 000,000 American citizens voting for them, despite being saddled with Fox News, holding its majority in the House and carrying large swathes of the US outside of the influence of the Vested Interests which, taken together, has an unbroken border and access to the sea.

Mr Krugman has been "married" twice which is a sufficient explanation of his basic position. Mr Rubio just the once and in a Catholic church. And he has been elected whereas Mr Krugman has been appointed by a process just as mysterious as the age of the earth.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 09:48 am
@farmerman,
Krugman is always a good read.
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 10:12 am
@edgarblythe,
Hes taken aim at several of the "rising stars" in the Far Right .

I completely changed my view of Marco Rubio, hew as wacky as the pack of em.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 10:14 am
@edgarblythe,
Concise and precise is his style of summing it all up.
Quote:

We are, after all, living in an era when science plays a crucial economic role. How are we going to search effectively for natural resources if schools trying to teach modern geology must give equal time to claims that the world is only 6.000 years old? How are we going to stay competitive in biotechnology if biology classes avoid any material that might offend creationists?
spendius
 
  0  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 10:18 am
@farmerman,
What's this--ring a ring a roses?

Krugman's article was pathetic. His fellow academics must be appalled. It could have been written by somebody majoring in rice-puddings.

It's only a good read to those at the level it was written down to.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 10:43 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
We are, after all, living in an era when science plays a crucial economic role.


Fancy that eh? Whodathowtit?

Quote:
How are we going to search effectively for natural resources if schools trying to teach modern geology must give equal time to claims that the world is only 6.000 years old?


We don't seem to have done so bad searching for natural resources. It might be a good idea to hinder the searching a little in case we hollow out the ******* earth and pump it into the atmosphere.

Mr Krugman has obviously never read Veblen's Absentee Ownership

Which saves him from the knowledge that the level of searching for natural resources is hindered only to keep the price of them at a level at which a reasonable profit can be made, as much as possible in other words, by the vested interests in which we all have a share. (Minderbinder's Law).

Perhaps he is trying to deflect the responsibility for that hindering, Veblen labels it sabotage, on to the Creationists who were in full flow when we scoured the earth for natural resources. Perhaps he is a bit miffed that the Creationists think he is living over the brush with a first change doxie.

Quote:
How are we going to stay competitive in biotechnology if biology classes avoid any material that might offend creationists?


Has he not seen the state of modern biotechnology? Every new revelation makes one wonder whatever will they think of next.

That whole paragraph you quoted so approvingly, fm, is unmitigated drivel.

Notice I leave the assertion until last.



spendius
 
  0  
Sat 24 Nov, 2012 10:45 am
@spendius,
Quote:
We are, after all, living in an era when science plays a crucial economic role.


You can be very sure that if you see a sentence like that in one of my posts that I am taking the piss.
 

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