Help me if you can, I'm feeling down....

That's WHY you must consistently apply the naughty spot technique EVERY TIME he engages in an unacceptable behavior. Eventually, he will develop self-control -- but his ability to develop that self-control will only come from consistent effort on your part. You can't allow any unacceptable behaviors to slide or go unpunished no matter how weary or tired you get from the process. Someday, Mo will be entering society without your care and oversight -- and he needs to develop self-control for his own protection and the protection of others.

The technique described by Debra does help and consistency
is the key to it, but I still think he needs an outlet for
his anger.

Debra, I think we're saying almost exactly the same thing except I yell to distract him and then reprimand him while you announce the reprimand in a low authoritative voice.

Mo gets WAY more attention for good behavior than for bad behavior. I really don't think that his bad behavior is to get attention.

Most of the time Mo is a good kid, a great kid but sometimes when he's working things out or whatever he gets a bit angsty. When he does, he is hard to deal with and I think it freaks both of us out a bit.

Like today -

He ruined something of his. No big deal to me, I wasn't mad. I told him to take it and put it in the trash. He did.

Then he went to the mirror and started spitting at himself.

His dad used to spit on his mom all of the time.

WTF!?

ooooooohhhh, poor Mo, and poor Boomer!

Okay, catching up....

I DO IT EVERY TIME!!!!!!

And I think it's the right thing to do.

You've talked about consistency for as long as I've seen you talk about this, I know you're great with that.

By the way I think "naughty spot" is strange and potentially damaging terminology. The last thing you want to intimate to a kid with behavior problems is that the problem is something he or she IS rather than something he or she DID. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

"Time-out" is sufficient.

One last thing -- there is absolutely NO single disciplinary technique that will automatically result in a perfectly behaved child. Kids are different, not just because of their experiences but because of more inherent factors. Kids react differently to different techniques, even within a given family.

I'm done. I think.

(I know you slip into a certain tone rather easily, Debra, but I think that tone in this situation is entirely uncalled for.)

I do not tell Mo he's bad - I tell him his behavior is bad. So maybe the "naughty behavior" spot would be okay but Mo has enough crap to deal with without being "bad" or "naughty" or anything else.

I completely agree that consistency is of primary importance. I thought that I had made that evident in my posts. I'm usually not one to yell but I thought that perhaps being blunt was the only way to make sure that part of my experience was heard.

Among the many people on A2K who have offered me good advice, Debra is certainly one. I'm sorry if my yelling offended her, or anyone else, in any way.

I'm at the end of my rope today and my fingers are starting to bleed a bit.

I really wish there was some magic wand that would work with every child but I know that is not going to ever be true.

When I see this beautiful child spit on his reflection I know I would sell my soul to make everything perfect for him.

Mo has boundries. He is disciplined.

I know he pushes so hard to see if I too disappear.

I'm a willfull child myself and I ain't going nowhere.

(((((Boomer)))))) and (((Mo)))

I have a couple ideas, but I'm packing and rushed so I hope they don't sound overly disjointed.

First, there's a terrific series of parenting books titled, "Your # Year Old", by Ames and Ilg or Ames and Haber. They describe typical behavioral patterns for a given year. I discovered them when K was three and they were extremely helpful in helping me sort out her age appropriate behaviors from her other issues.

They describe ages and stages as a cyclical pattern of outward behavior, followed by inward behavior, followed by outward.... in parallel there are periods of equilibrium and disequalibrium. The age of 4 is typically a year of outward behavior and disequalibrium. I loaned out my 4 year old book and never got it back so I can't look up any specifics, but I *highly* recommend this series.

Second, on the other hand Mo's early experiences are very probably deeply embedded in his being and it is entirely possible that when he is going through an outward period, combined with normal age appropriate disequilibrium, he will manifest some of those things that only he carries - his personal demons, if you will. You might want to look at a couple of other books that helped me separate K's unique self from the rest of her peers. They were "Understanding Your Child's Temperament", by William Carey, M.D. and "Raising Your Spirited Child", by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.

I have lots of ideas but no answers. Each child is unique and yet normal. It is sometimes very difficult to separate out behavioral issues from normal "four year old boy stuff". I have one word of hope, early 5s are usually more inward and in equalibrium - but hold on to your socks as he approaches 6!

Hi Boomer,

I really don't have any advice. Some here have already given, what sounds to me, like sensible ideas, but only you will know if they are the right ones for your situation.

If I understand correctly, Mo entered your home at 2 years of age? And how old is he now?

How long have the visits been going on to his birth parents? Is it possible that there is some anger and confusion being generated by these trips back and forth?

Is Mo old enough to understand his current situation?

Just listening. Sounds like you're doing everything I would know how to do, and more.

You're being a good mommy.

I have forgotten what RAD stands for, and can't find it by googling.

Reactive Attachment Disorder.

I've been channeling my energy into areas other than A2K for the last few days - sorry I'm so late in responding.

I will look for those books J_B, sorting out what is normal and what is specific to Mo's "issues" is the hardest part of all of this.

Mo is now four, Reyn and without doubt he is busy sorting things out. He does still see his bio-family and a lot of the bad behavior seems to happen right after a visit.

HOWEVER

I might have stumbled onto something that would be a lovely easy answer to the problems we've seen the last few days.

Mo has been rubbing at his nose and had circles under his eyes -- all of the classic symptoms of seasonal allergies. I called his doctor and she suggested I pick up some Children's Claritin, which I did. After taking it he seemed to really mellow out.

I didn't know if this was good or bad so I googled around and came across this and many other things like it:

"In addition to bothersome symptoms, such as sneezing and watery eyes, performance and behavior problems at home and at school can also occur. Some of these behavior and performance problems can include irritability, temper tantrums, decreased ability to concentrate, overactive behavior and decreased academic performance."

I am so hoping that the problem is this simple.

There is a strong genetic connection with allergies - his grandparents are coming for a visit today (oh joy) so I'll quiz them on family history.

Encouraging!

Wow. That's good news, Boomer.

I'm very late to this thread and it seems like you might already be on your way to finding the cause of Mo's behavior problems. But I was reading along and my instinct is telling me that something like what Jane's suggesting, an outlet, would work for Mo. Mostly it seems that, if you're right and consequences don't change his behavior, that redirecting his energy might work better. I don't know if karate would do it since it seems more like he needs redirection or some sort of outlet at specific times. But it seems like he's old enough to at least take notice of his own behavior and to learn to try to control it through positive alternatives. One thing about immediate consequences is that they teach kids not to do certain things, but they don't really give them alternatives. For some kids, that's a problem.

You could call timeouts "cool-offs" and gently remind him when he's pushing the boundaries of bad behavior and suggest ways he can avert it. In this way, he can take a cool-off himself and it's not necessarily for naughty behavior. I try to teach my kids to tune in to themselves and know their limits. "When we get tired, we cry a lot" is said a lot in my house. Same with, "we tend to hurt ourselves when we're tired" and "we get grumpy when we are hungry." My older boy is actually starting to get this and the younger girl now uses deep breathing to calm herself down ( I used to tell her to take deep breaths when she started to lose it ). But the best thing about it is that they are able to take notice and verbalize what they are feeling.

Sorry, that was all over the place but I had a lot of thoughts while reading through the thread and not much time to write this. Buck up, boomer, you're doing a terrific job and you are the best chance Mo has for a healthy adulthood.

Great ideas there FreeDuck!

Thanks, soz! Like you, I'm relieved to know that boomer will gladly flush my advice if it is way off the mark :wink:.

I really, really like the "cool off" idea.

I'm thinking I could even sequester myself off in a corner with a timer for some "cool off" to provide a bit of separation for us.

And maybe he would learn to do the same when he needed cool off time.

That would be good - to differintiate it from time out as a punishment.

I'm going to have to work up a plan and get Mr. B on board. I think this could be good.

I did send te dog to time out today when she harrassed Mo for some of his sandwich. Mo loved that.

I quizzed the grandparents today about allegies and they do run in his family!

I started thinking later that I'm realling missing the boat on Mo's medical history. I need to take advantage of being on good terms with both sides of his bio-family and asking for a written history of medical problems.

Adoptive parents would give their right arm for the information I can get pretty easily.

I'm going to start on this project full force tomorrow!

You go girl :-D