Help me if you can, I'm feeling down....

How much time does Mo spend with other little kids - with other adults, but not you around, boomer?


Several of my friends have discovered that their kids' behaviour improved significantly for the better when they were with other kids in the care of a non-custodial/non-guardian adult. The kids knew that there was really no downside to acting out with parents/guardians - didn't know what to expect of the caregiver/daycare provider, J/K teacher - and straightened out right quick. Not a 100% result match - but dang close.


Sometimes too much of a good thing is really too much.

Hard call.

He spends quite a bit of time around other kids.

Not so much time around other adults but I think if you factor in visits to his bio-family that it would account for more time than most four year olds spend around adults without their parents nearby.

I'm afraid he'd be the next kid being led away in handcuffs if he were in school - on days like this he would be way too disruptive.

That sucks, boomer, I'm sorry.

I'm currently feeling rather fed up myself but that has more to do with the fact that the weather is awful after I had just settled in to acceptance of summer and the choices that come with it -- playing in the yard! -- and that we're both grumpy about it.

I will say that ever since my little Google-fuelled "could this be it?" RAD idea was confirmed by the person you saw, I've been wary of giving advice. I know just enough to know that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. That is, I have ideas, but then I immediately second-guess them with "yes but with his background...?"

The wheelbarrow thing is an example. I know what I would do with sozlet. But...

And that's ME, with no real stake except for my fondness and concern for both of you, I can't quite imagine how daunting it is for you.

What's going on with that guy (I forget if his title was psychiatrist or psychologist or what...) He really seemed to have some good ideas and be a good resource.

What still seems possible to me is that Mo is in a place where he feels safe and comfortable enough to deal with what needs to be dealt with, and that it's a good thing even though it's terribly hard for YOU to deal with. In that case, the name of the game is loving but firm, loving but firm, over and over until things start to change.

But there are all kinds of specifics that I would love to give you and don't think I have. Like you mentioned the guy (psychwhatever) saying that standard time-out sort of discipline is not a good idea. What is? I'm not sure. We use standard time-out sort of discipline.

How did the extra activity thing go? You went back to the pool, right?

Children in general will be destructive and angry at times,
boomerang. ((((hugs))))

My daughter started having outbursts of anger when she
entered Kindergarten. She didn't like to be restricted and
having to sit quietly for longer periods of time.
She got so angry sometimes that her classmates became
frightened.

I enrolled her into Karate classes where she could release
her anger into a punching bag and there she could kick
and scream all she wanted. It helped her to channel her
anger and release tension. After a year of Karate she
quit herself and learned how to control her emotions.

I don't know if it would help Mo, but I would try it....

Yeah, we went back to the pool. Plus, the weather here has been great so all the neighborhood kids hang out and play and we've been gardening and biking and stuff.

I really respect and appreciate your advice on kid-things, soz. Don't let the RAD thing hold you back from offering up ideas. I'm capable of rejecting them if it doesn't feel right for us, under our circumstances.

The thing is, it would be really easy to blame his past for everything but I do have to accept some responsibility for this because I don't really believe that a kid's entire life is formed within the first two years of life. I know it's a crucial period but it isn't everything.

I know his parents fought and worse. But can he really remember the lack of respect that they showed each other to such an extent that he can mimic it now? He doesn't see it here.

By the way, remember Will, who sozlet's been fascinated with? Very boyish boy? He really reminds me of Mo. Big kid, strong, impulsive. I've observed in her class twice and watched video of the class (when I wasn't there) twice, and all four times he was the center of a brouhaha or two. There are three teachers in the class and they deal with him masterfully. I am totally thrilled with sozlet's preschool (especially now that she hasn't gotten sick in a while... knock on wood) and for all I know it could be the absolute top in the whole nation and its unrealistic to hope to find anything similar, but if they can deal with Will, I really think that someplace similar could deal with Mo.

And by the way Will comes from a nuclear family, older sister, awesome mom, I can't imagine anything in particular *causing* the significant issues he seems to have. But he has 'em.

Hmmmm...

Karate class......

That is an interesting idea, CJane. I'm going to think on that one a bit. Thank you.

One other random-ish thought:

When I was about sozlet's age, I moved too, from SF to Minneapolis. I was discovered by a mom (I was just hanging out on the block) who recruited me to be a friend for her daughter. I didn't realize the "recruiting" part until much, much later. Maria was very smart and absolutely impossible. Bossy, violent, tantrum-y, awful in lots of ways. One year younger than me, and thought I was wonderful. Really looked up to me. She had an amazing imagination and I genuinely loved playing with her even though I accepted that she would have her tantrums and freak-outs.

After maybe a year or two, no had to be about three years since they'd moved by then (I still have a clear memory of this, where we were, weather, etc.), Maria's mom took me aside to tell me how much she appreciated my patience and understanding and good role-modeling (not what she said, idea) with Maria. She said it like it was a big sacrifice from me, and it really wasn't.

As I got older, I was mystefied as to how this absolutely perfect family produced the heh problem named Maria. (Just thought of that.) Maria's mom absolutely rocks, I spent so much time there that she is probably right up there with my own mom in terms of role models. She was a stay-at-home mom (mine worked.) In truth, a lot of advice you get from me probably filters down from her.

Anyway, over the years Maria calmed down more and more and became just the sort of paragon of perfection you'd expect from that family. Kind, generous, smart as heck. No particular temper. We're still in touch, she's done well for herself, good person.

Not sure of the moral, just occurred to me.

Oh Boomer, I truly feel for you. Mo and my son could be twins as you described my son when he was little, except my son was a little older than 4 when he started acting out. The good part is that my son didn't act out in school, only with me and his grandmother. I tried everything and nothing worked except for time. My son eventually grew out of it, but it took several years.
I have no idea why he was like this, so I just chalked it up to him having his own stubborn personallity. My son also broke all his toys and as he got older he told me it was because he wanted to know what was inside. Sometimes he would take things apart because he wanted to put it back together. It was as simple as that and all those years I thought it was due to anger issues.
A lot of folks (especially psychiatrists) will tell you that there is some psychological reason for Mo's actions, but I don't agree with them. All kids are different, but one thing most kids have in common is they are loaded with energy, but they all have different ways of spending that energy.
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to say anything to help you deal with your situation. All I can do is tell you to hang in there and offer you my support.

((((Hugs))))

In Mo's case, there are some psychological reasons for his actions but I don't think that is the be-all-end-all of his behavior.

His anger just comes out of nowhere, or so it seems. I hope he does outgrow it but I could probably deal with anger if it didn't have the overlay of such vicious, nastiness; the "I'm going to kill you"s and the "I hate you"s.

I confess though, it is when he starts being mean to the animals that I'm afraid I'm going to lose my cool. My dogs are old and gentle but they are big and they are, after all, dogs - they could hurt him if they were so inclined. Plus, I know that hurting animals is a sign of phychoshitola.

I can understand your concern and I wish I could say something that would help :-(

Let me ask you this boomer: What do you do, or how do
you handle the situation when Mo does hurt the animals
resp. is trying to do so?

I did talk to the counselor about the dog thing and I follow his advice:

React BIG.

I yell to get his attention drawn away from them. I reprimand him. I take away whatever device he is using to torment them. I send him to time out. When time out is over we talk about why hurting the dogs is so wrong. I make him apologize to the dogs.

My dogs are old and very tolerent, they let him get away with dressing them up in hats and such. (I had to curtail the silly collars he created because Mo goes for the neck when he wants to hurt someone (me mostly).) He loves to brush Bakker and since she's on meds that make her hair fall out she loves to be brushed. She loves it, and loves him for it, until he starts whacking at her with the spikey brush.

Oooops -

Montana, believe me, it really helps to talk about it with people who, while maybe not experiencing the same thing, at least have a notion of what I'm talking about.

It all helps.

And I thank you all.

I'm asking because we had initially the same problem with
my old dog. The dog was there before Jane came into the
house and she was very jealous of the dog. I never could
leave her alone with the dog and once she locked the dog
into the closet.

I did exactly as you did, reprimanding her and talking
about it afterwards, yet she remained jealous. The dog
died of natural causes a year later, and when we got
a new dog from the shelter, everything changed.
Little Jane knew that this dog is being adopted (like she was) and she
somehow considered the dog as her "brother". We never
had a problem thereafter (at least not with the dog )

Oh, so you do do (doobie doobie do) time-outs. See, that helps me recalibrate.

And thanks for the go-ahead, if I know you know that I know that what I'm saying could well be full of it I'm happy to just go ahead. :-D

One of the main things I was trying to get across is that, IMO, his current behavior does NOT necessarily reflect on two years of your parenting, at least not in a negative way and maybe even in a positive way, in terms of dealing with his anger etc., rather than repressing it and trying to get someone to love him. I know kids who have been optimally parented from birth who are like that, and the one I've known long term just eventually came around in the face of boundless love and patience. But not when she was 4.

Like ehBeth, for some reason my instincts are saying that some situation in which you or Mr. B are not the authority figures would be helpful. This is full of second-guessing -- but what if he doesn't want to and then do you force the issue no that seems like it would be counterproductive but if you just go with it does that mean that each time you'd try from here on he'd just say no and that would be that...? -- but it's my instinct. Not necessarily preschool, but some sort of class/ activity where you arrive, drop him off, leave, and come back after an interval where someone else is in charge.

Mrs. B:

You need to get little Mo's unacceptable behavior under control before he enters kindergarten . . . or they'll call the police and they'll take him out in handcuffs. (Am I joking?)

Well . . . I'm a big fan of Nanny Jo Jo in the weekly television show: SuperNanny.

The one thing that she stresses is consistency. You just can't let any of his unacceptable behaviors go without consequences. He's four years old and that means -- EVERY TIME he engages in an unacceptable behavior, he MUST sit on the naughty spot for four minutes.

Establish a NAUGHTY SPOT. Buy a round rug and designate it as the naughty spot. Place it in an area where he doesn't have access to his toys or television -- it must be a spot where he can't do anything other than think about his naughty behavior and his punishment.

You get down to his level. In a low, but authoritative voice, you tell him that his behavior (kicking the dog, being disrespectful, etc.) is UNACCEPTABLE. Say it one time (do not allow him to engage you in arguing) and then sit him on the naughty spot. If he gets up, you say NOTHING, but you immediately put him back. If he yells, screams, or tries to engage you in any manner whatsoever. YOU SAY NOTHING. It doesn't matter if he gets up a hundred times, you still say NOTHING. You just keep putting him back. Eventually he will stay for his four minutes.

When he has served his four minutes on the naughty spot (and don't give the "NAUGHTY" spot a different name -- he has to KNOW that he was naughty), then you go to him, you tell him why he was on the naughty spot: Kicking the dog is UNACCEPTABLE.

Then you request an apology for kicking the dog (or whatever unacceptable behavior that you're punishing).

Once he has apologized, THEN you both engage in hugs and kisses and go on with your day.

BUT . . . CONSISTENCY is the KEY. If you allow ANY of his unacceptable behaviors to slide or go unpunished -- that will give him the POWER AND CONTROL. No child should ever be in control of the household.

Watch the SuperNanny -- Monday nights.

Mo does spend time with authority figures who are not me and Mr. B - his bio-family. Recently I elicited an admission about what actually goes on re: Mo's behavior during these visits. He is NOT happy to be away, he makes his unhappiness crystal clear.

I read the handcuffed kid threads with great interest. I know teachers COULD deal with the situation but is it fair to make them? The teachers who weighed in on those threads were very persuasive.

I think maybe a class of some sort would be a better introduction to others in authority than school.

I do watch the Nanny 9-11 show. And really, I think I am very consistent with messages and discipline.

We DO do time out but for a lack of anything better. I won't hit Mo. I won't scream and yell at Mo.

But like the counselor told me, and other's have told me, when dealing with a RAD kid, the cause effect thing just doesn't work like it should and time out is not very effective for them.

Also, the impulse control mechanism in their brain is not well developed. Even though they know there is a certain consequence, they really can't stop themselves from acting on their impulses.

Mo KNOWS the things that are not okay.

Mo has a very hard time stopping himself despite knowing what consequence lies in store.

You're ENGAGING him and stimulating him and he's getting lots of attention from his naughty behavior.

You immediately go to him. You immediately get down to his eye level and look him in the eyes. You don't yell or reprimand from a distance or when you're towering over his level. You just say in a low, authoritative voice: "HURTING THE DOG IS UNACCEPTABLE." Then you authoritatively take him to the naughty spot and sit him down. You don't engage him. You don't talk to him. You don't allow him to engage you or to entice you into an engagement or exchange of words. You don't say one more word until he is done serving his four minutes on the naughty spot.

Then you go to him; again get down to his level; and again state in a low, authoritative voice: "HURTING THE DOG IS UNACCEPTABLE." Then you say, "I want an apology."

Once he apologizes, you hug and kiss each other, then the matter is DONE. EVERY TIME he engages in an unacceptable behavior, you consistently apply the SAME technique. The SAME technique, over and over again. NO DEVIATION.

Eventually, you will have a well-behaved little boy.