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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:04 am
That is a disgusting thing to say perception. Have I got this right? You are blaming me for the deaths of our soldiers because I never wanted them involved in your dispute with Iraq in the first place?

Just exactly what are you saying here? That the delay in starting the war is my fault? Oh yes. I think maybe the military commanders waiting for orders from George Bush might have a different take on that. Having failed to keep our people out of harm's way, the next best option is a quick and decisive victory. You got a problem with that?

Oh I see now where you're coming from. IF it all goes horribly wrong, it will be the fault of those damned people who tried to AVOID war in the first place. IF however its a quick clean victory it will of course be to the CREDIT of those tough minded clear sighted politicians and their camp followers, who were gung ho for war from the outset. Its a win win situation for you Percy, you must be loving it.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:22 am
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Anti war protest!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:26 am
Agree Steve. Horrendous.

I'm listening to a discussion (Diane Rehm show) of what happened with Turkey and am wondering whether anyone else has picked up on a deepening split between the White House and the Pentagon -- or rather the military vs. the Pentagon bureaucrats? We know the disagreements already existed, but even as described by the administration supporter on the panel (David Brooks), the administration's handling of Turkey was really, really incompetent and is costing the military a lot. It will be interesting to see if this split becomes more visible, who says what...
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:27 am
The truth will soon become "self evident". There has always been a percentage of the American/world population without the resolve to follow through on the really tough decisions and instead involve themselves in activities that would make the resolve of others more difficult. That percentage has now become dangerously high especially on this forum and that is why I'm leaving. I am thoroughly disgusted but at the same time I am very worried about the future world that our children and grandchildren will inherit.

When a murderer/despot such as Saddam is protected by the very people who declare themselves good Americans then it is time to stop arguing and start grieving. I will not post on this forum again but reserve the right observe the comments on the debacle that is sure to follow.

Sumac:

That was not a "snide" remark that I made----I was expressing my genuine contempt for those who want my country to fail.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:28 am
Tartarin - tell us more!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:29 am
A bit too humorous not to post...
Quote:
Everybody notes how confusing things have gotten at the White House. But the NYT has the best color. The paper describes "a brief scurry" in the morning to arrange for President Bush to hop over to Europe and convene a "war caucus" with Tony Blair and Spanish President José María Aznar. Then officials realized that Bush is about as popular over there as Fergie, and that his presence wouldn't exactly do wonders for Blair. The plans were canceled by lunchtime. "There's recognition this has not been our finest diplomatic hour,' said one SAO, whose voice, says the Times, was "dripping with understatement."
http://slate.msn.com/id/2080148/
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:30 am
Perception - not one of us here wants america to fail. We want america to raise to it's greatest potential. Some of us don't believe that being a bully is our supreme goal.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:32 am
Quote:
The LAT has nabbed a classified State Department report that concludes that the much-touted domino democracy theory isn't likely to happen. The government report doesn't much mince words; it's titled, "Iraq, the Middle East and Change: No Dominoes." According to the LAT, it was published February 26, the same day Bush made a big speech envisioning how a war in Iraq would eventually cause elections to sprout throughout the region. Bringing democracy to Iraq, "couldn't hurt," said one current intel official. "But to sell (the war) on the basis that this is going to cause 1,000 flowers to bloom is naive." The headline, by the way, is devastating, "DEMOCRACY DOMINO THEORY 'NOT CREDIBLE' "
same link as previous
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:34 am
perception wrote:
The truth will soon become "self evident". There has always been a percentage of the American/world population without the resolve to follow through on the really tough decisions and instead involve themselves in activities that would make the resolve of others more difficult. That percentage has now become dangerously high especially on this forum and that is why I'm leaving. I am thoroughly disgusted but at the same time I am very worried about the future world that our children and grandchildren will inherit.

When a murderer/despot such as Saddam is protected by the very people who declare themselves good Americans then it is time to stop arguing and start grieving. I will not post on this forum again but reserve the right observe the comments on the debacle that is sure to follow.




I think you'd enjoy this forum more.
Abuzz at NYTimes.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:34 am
Quote:
According to an NYT op-ed by Nixon biographer Roger Morris, this isn't the first time the U.S. has advocated regime change in Baghdad. According to Morris, the CIA helped engineer a coup there in 1963. Among the plotters "colluding with the C.I.A." was one Saddam Hussein. "Almost certainly a gain for our side," a National Security Council aide wrote to President Kennedy about the takeover.
same again
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:51 am
LittleK -- I don't know! I'm asking!

Dan Shorr just referred to the "coalition of the willing" as the "coalition of the billing".

And yes, I want America to "fail." In my view, the greatest success would be for us to stop all preemptive aggression initiated by the US -- outlaw it -- and stop behaving as though we could eliminate all risk by dominating the rest of the world. I'd follow that by making a real effort to praise others before we praise ourselves, to repair our relationships with others, and to make sure we have done everything we can to improve the lives of those who are suffering before we even consider actions which have the potential of creating more suffering. So yes, I want America the bully to fail, by noon today, if possible. And then I want those who seem unable to recognize shades of gray to at least give up the argument that what I have just said here means I want Saddam to "succeed" or I'm drooling over the possibility of piles of body bags. Don't forget this: the body bags are being shipped out and filled by an administration many of us tried very hard to keep out of office.
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:51 am
Tartarin - well said !
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:55 am
dyslexia wrote:
just a thought here, but i was listening to a conservative economist explaining that the US budget was an excellent means of analysis of the intent of our government. he offered his stats on US budget from 1920 - present demonstrating that we have shifted from defense to offense with the example of 9/11 there were virtually no armed aircraft in US to deal with the terrorists because we are operating an offensive military whereas he felt we should have a defensive military. if you want i can look back and get his info. at least he offered a different point of view that made me think.

dys - I don't know enough about our current military capabilities to know if his comments are plausible, but it is certainly an interesting argument. Any chance you could turn this into its own discussion and see where it takes us?
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 09:57 am
Tartarin - in that sense... yes. I'd like us to learn that bullying is not the way. That our way of life isn't neccessarily good for everyone. I thought the statement about failure was more general.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 10:06 am
tres i would enjoy that but i am a known liberal poet high on pot which so often prevents actual dialogue.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 10:18 am
I'm going to post this full piece, for the obvious reason, but also for another. See note at bottom...

Quote:
Put Up or Shut Up, Richard Perle
I double-dare him to sue Seymour Hersh.
By Jack Shafer
Posted Thursday, March 13, 2003, at 3:38 PM PT

"I'm gonna punch you in the nose" is a serious threat. "I'm gonna punch you in the nose tomorrow … or the day after" carries much less urgency. But the stipulative warning "I'm gonna punch you in the nose next week in England, where I'm looking to hire a professional nose-puncher to inflict the punishment" is the sort of statement only a grandstanding pantywaist would make.

A grandstanding pantywaist like Richard N. Perle.

Perle threatened yesterday to sue investigative reporter Seymour M. Hersh for libel?-specifically, for things Hersh wrote about him in this week's New Yorker. The article examines the potential conflict of interest posed by Perle's dual roles as official Bush adviser (in the form of non-paid chair of the Defense Policy Board) and as managing partner at Trireme Partners, a venture capital firm. Trireme appears to invest in businesses that deal in enterprises "that are of value to homeland security and defense," according to Hersh's piece. As a special government employee, Perle is subject to a federal Code of Conduct, Hersh writes, and "[t]hose rules bar a special employee from participating in an official capacity in any matter in which he has a financial interest."


The article doesn't accuse Perle of breaking any laws, but it explores the unseemly nature of advocating a war on Iraq while engaged in a business that could financially benefit from such a war.

Ordinarily newspapers don't consider it news that someone might have "plans" to file a lawsuit. Especially if they plan to file later. In England. All of which explains why no U.S. daily published his threat except the neoconservative New York Sun. Its story, "Perle Suing Over New Yorker Article," in yesterday's edition, reads like a press release for Perle, who, the article notes, is a director of Hollinger International, which, the article notes, invests in the Sun.

In mounting Perle's prosecution, the Sun article calls upon Perle protégé Laurent Murawiec, a former follower of Lyndon LaRouche. Murawiec, who made news last year when he gave a PowerPoint presentation before the Defense Policy Board that called for the invasion of Saudi Arabia and the seizure of its oil fields, said to the Sun, "Richard has been in public life for over 30 years and his ethics have never been challenged by anybody." Not surprisingly, no Perle critic or Hersh partisan comments in the piece. (Addendum, March 14, 2003: The New York Sun's Ira Stoll, who used to bird-dog the New York Times with his SmarterTimes Web site, writes to complain that the Sun did talk to somebody on Hersh's side?-New Yorker editor David Remnick. That's true, but Remnick is a likely defendant in the case if Perle is nuts enough to file it, not an outside observer. Had the Sun been interested in pursuing the sort of "balance" Stoll used to urge upon the Times, it would have talked to Hersh partisans after letting two Perle cronies prattle on about how wonderful and unassailable their buddy is. When the Sun publishes its follow-up about Perle v. Hersh, I'm available to comment about Hersh's bona fides.)

What part of The New Yorker story is untrue, the Sun asked Perle? "It's all lies, from beginning to end," Perle responded, not exactly furthering his brief. Perle knows his way around lies, having described Hersh to CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Sunday as "the closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist … because he sets out to do damage and he will do it by whatever innuendo, whatever distortion he can?-look, he hasn't written a serious piece since My Lai." Yes, yes; since his My Lai story, Hersh has only dealt with such lighthearted subjects as KAL 007, the Israeli bomb, and Henry Kissinger.

While we're on the subject of serious, it bears examining why Perle would take his libel lawsuit to England. Is it because Perle is English? No. Because Hersh is? No. Because The New Yorker is published there? No. He's venue-shopping in England because it's easier to win a libel case there than it is here, which he explains in the Sun. As a public figure and government official, Perle would be laughed out of court in the United States. If he got a settlement in the U.K., he could raid the substantial British assets of the The New Yorker's parent company, Condé Nast.

British libel law, of course, is completely un-American! "While both American and British law preclude liability if the statement is true, American law places the burden of proof on the plaintiff to show the statement is false," write media lawyers Laura R. Handman and Robert D. Balin of Davis Wright Tremaine. "By contrast, British law imposes the burden on defendant to prove truth or 'justification' and permits aggravated damages if defendant tries but fails." Maybe Hersh should be grateful Perle isn't filing where Sharia is observed.

Will Perle file against Hersh, or is he just shooting his mouth off? Handman and Balin write that British courts have begun "turning back" blatant cases of venue-shopping by litigants who think the British courts are a soft touch. The two judges who preside over libel cases in London recently rejected a pair of libel suits against Forbes because no discussion of the litigants' English interests could be found in the articles. File your case in the United States, the judges essentially said. They have a wonderful legal system.

The judge will probably tell Perle the same thing. So, go ahead and sue, Mr. Perle, and make sure an expensive barrister handles your case. The New Yorker has money to burn, and I'd love to see you lose yours.
Mentioned above is Mr. Perle's position of director at Hollinger Int. This is something I didn't know. Hollinger Int http://www.suntimes.com/geninfo/hollinger.html is controlled by Canadian Conrad Black. Conrad doesn't much like Palestinians. Hardly anyone here much likes Conrad. So he got up and left, moving to England where, I understand, he helps out with Margaret Thatcher's bed pan, hoping to be knighted (can one think of a more deserving sacrifice?)

Hollinger previously bought up Canadian papers until controlling some 70% of our dailies (including both Vancouver dailies, plus The National Post, one of two national papers along with the Globe and Mail). Following these purchases, Canadian press made a fairly abrupt lurch to the right, resulting in the resignations of a few long time daily editors. Hollinger sold these holdings a few years ago to Izzy Asper and family, who are perhaps even less friendly with anything critical of Israeli policies. The National Post now has David Frum as regular columnist (he's the fellow who, working at the White House, penned the ever-popular 'Axis of Evil' line, and he's already written a column against Hersh's piece).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 11:39 am
Another article. c.i.
*******************
George W. Queeg
March 14, 2003
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Aboard the U.S.S. Caine, it was the business with the
strawberries that finally convinced the doubters that
something was amiss with the captain. Is foreign policy
George W. Bush's quart of strawberries?

Over the past few weeks there has been an epidemic of
epiphanies. There's a long list of pundits who previously
supported Bush's policy on Iraq but have publicly changed
their minds. None of them quarrel with the goal; who
wouldn't want to see Saddam Hussein overthrown? But they
are finally realizing that Mr. Bush is the wrong man to do
the job. And more people than you would think - including a
fair number of people in the Treasury Department, the State
Department and, yes, the Pentagon - don't just question the
competence of Mr. Bush and his inner circle; they believe
that America's leadership has lost touch with reality.

If that sounds harsh, consider the debacle of recent
diplomacy - a debacle brought on by awesome arrogance and a
vastly inflated sense of self-importance.

Mr. Bush's inner circle seems amazed that the tactics that
work so well on journalists and Democrats don't work on the
rest of the world. They've made promises, oblivious to the
fact that most countries don't trust their word. They've
made threats. They've done the aura-of-inevitability thing
- how many times now have administration officials claimed
to have lined up the necessary votes in the Security
Council? They've warned other countries that if they oppose
America's will they are objectively pro-terrorist. Yet
still the world balks.

Wasn't someone at the State Department allowed to point out
that in matters nonmilitary, the U.S. isn't all that
dominant - that Russia and Turkey need the European market
more than they need ours, that Europe gives more than twice
as much foreign aid as we do and that in much of the world
public opinion matters? Apparently not.

And to what end has Mr. Bush alienated all our most
valuable allies? (And I mean all: Tony Blair may be with
us, but British public opinion is now virulently
anti-Bush.) The original reasons given for making Iraq an
immediate priority have collapsed. No evidence has ever
surfaced of the supposed link with Al Qaeda, or of an
active nuclear program. And the administration's eagerness
to believe that an Iraqi nuclear program does exist has led
to a series of embarrassing debacles, capped by the case of
the forged Niger papers, which supposedly supported that
claim. At this point it is clear that deposing Saddam has
become an obsession, detached from any real rationale.

What really has the insiders panicked, however, is the
irresponsibility of Mr. Bush and his team, their almost
childish unwillingness to face up to problems that they
don't feel like dealing with right now.

I've talked in this column about the administration's eerie
passivity in the face of a stalling economy and an
exploding budget deficit: reality isn't allowed to intrude
on the obsession with long-run tax cuts. That same "don't
bother me, I'm busy" attitude is driving foreign policy
experts, inside and outside the government, to despair.

Need I point out that North Korea, not Iraq, is the clear
and present danger? Kim Jong Il's nuclear program isn't a
rumor or a forgery; it's an incipient bomb assembly line.
Yet the administration insists that it's a mere "regional"
crisis, and refuses even to talk to Mr. Kim.

The Nelson Report, an influential foreign policy
newsletter, says: "It would be difficult to exaggerate the
growing mixture of anger, despair, disgust and fear
actuating the foreign policy community in Washington as the
attack on Iraq moves closer, and the North Korea crisis
festers with no coherent U.S. policy. . . . We are at the
point now where foreign policy generally, and Korea policy
specifically, may become George Bush's `Waco.' . . . This
time, it's Kim Jong Il (and Saddam) playing David Koresh. .
. . Sober minds wrestle with how to break into the mind of
George Bush."

We all hope that the war with Iraq is a swift victory, with
a minimum of civilian casualties. But more and more people
now realize that even if all goes well at first, it will
have been the wrong war, fought for the wrong reasons - and
there will be a heavy price to pay.

Alas, the epiphanies of the pundits have almost surely come
too late. The odds are that by the time you read my next
column, the war will already have started.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/opinion/14KRUG.html?ex=1048648295&ei=1&en=260b59f35b8fc01a
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 11:46 am
Devasting article and true. Yet the attack would remain that it is unpatriotic - what an idiotic type response!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 12:07 pm
great wilso

What are they all saying?
0 Replies
 
trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 01:31 pm
dyslexia wrote:
tres i would enjoy that but i am a known liberal poet high on pot which so often prevents actual dialogue.

Perhaps the only thing preventing you from engaging in a meaningful dialog on this topic is your own reluctance to do so.
0 Replies
 
 

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