The US, UN & Iraq II

I think a lot of US firms would be the victim of your policy. They all did business with the Rogue states, not directly of course.

For example Caterpillar. They established a firm in Brussels and Geneve and called it "Caterpillar Overseas". That "Caterpillar Overseas" closes deals With Saddam, Libya, Iran,..... Technically "Cat Overseas" is a Belgian/Swiss firm. But we all know its American.

a
Kara , mind your own business ..... JUST KIDDING
I didn't realize there was a problem. Your's is a diplomatic solution that I will adopt. My only concern is that I flavor the idea behind the article by drawing attention to or detracting from the theme via my selection.

Of course the inference of my posting any material is that I am sympathetic to it's content.
As far as being intelectually lazy, I'll have to chew on that for a while.

Thanks

Just heard an unconfirmed report of a discovery of 20 medium range missiles filled with Sarin and Mustard gas ready to fire.

Vietnamnurse

I find that the mildest criticism of Israel is invariably met with charges of anti semitism.

Sharon thinks he can get Bush to junk the road map or modify it out of existence. But Blair has made it quite clear that our co-operation on Iraq is dependant upon restarting the peace process leading to a two state solution - anathema to Sharon. But who is in the stronger position when American and British forces are fighting and dying to defeat Israel's enemy, while Israel itself makes no contribution apart from cheering encouragement and taking the American tax payers' handouts so generously provided.

On the topic of cut and paste posts...

Timber and I are not entirely in agreement here. I think this is a very important issue.

We - any thoughtful community - cripple ourselves when disapproving new ideas and viewpoints. Rather than limit, such ought to be encouraged. Given that the content is relevant, and that it itself follows some rules of proper logic and discourse (evidence for arguments, lack of logical fallacies) the only negative consequence which might follow is insignificant (space taken up).

The good point Timber makes here is to encourage each of us to engage the debate ourselves as well.

Steve

Your contention that the 'Likudniks' have lost is rather premature. Wolfowitz, though possibly destined to fill a starring role in a remake of Judgement at Nuremburg, is not stupid. He understands that even if it is the US calling the shots post war, it will be diplomatically unhappy if it APPEARS that is the case. Why not use the UN, as was just done, to give an appearance of a coalition, and of some international justification for what's to be done?

The proof will be the pudding. What will this roadmap (if it ever appears) look like? What concessions will Israel actually have to accomodate (e.g. return territories they are taking while everyone is looking the other way). Is Syria next? Will the US actually leave Iraq, or set up permanently?

I agree with that Blatham. It takes a little more effort and time than I'm sometimes able to to take myself, but cut and pastes into a second window (I use my email program; notepad works okay) give one the flexibility to edit the quotes and interlace them with one's personal point of view. When one has the time, that may be the way to go.

That said, I think the treatment of Geligesti by Perception and Timber is just awful -- rude and inhuman on Perception's part, and completely incomprehensible on Timber-the-moderator's part. I don't see the personal remarks going away nor being responded to by a moderator directly and swiftly. I believe this forum has had its day -- it has become a kind of Abuzz outpost on A2K. Had Blatham not made his comments (above), I wouldn't be posting here myself.

While Bush has displayed sympathy for Israels right to protect itself from suicide bombers IMO you will see a much harder line with Sharon. I believe Powell made it clear that Bush is committed to an independent Palestinian State and now that the Iraqi situation is drawing to a successful conclusion militarily I personally believe you will see a shift in emphasis to the Palestinian situation. The combination of a regime change in Iraq and a successful settlement of the Israel/Palestinian conflict will gradually cool the Arab/Muslim vociferous rhetoric.

Turkey cautions US, Iraqi Kurds over oil-rich towns
2 hours, 41 minutes ago Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!
ANKARA (AFP) - Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned that Iraqi Kurdish control of oil-rich Mosul and Kirkuk would constitute grounds for Turkish military intervention in northern Iraq (news - web sites), Anatolia news agency reported.
"Going into northern Iraq is not an objective for us. Entering northern Iraq will not be on the agenda as long as Iraq's territorial integrity is preserved and there is no move aimed at seizing the oil of Mosul and Kirkuk," Erdogan told reporters Monday.
In cooperation with US troops, the forces of the two main Kurdish factions in northern Iraq have recently adavanced towards the two towns, on which they have historical claims.
Turkey fears that control of local oil resources could embolden Iraqi Kurds to move towards independence, a prospect that could set an example to their restive Turkish cousins.

I find those recent comments by perception unacceptable in this forum as well, and have PM'd timber and blatham about this.

I expect there to be corrective action taken.

It is important that both sides of this polarized thread maintain some semblance of balance. Unlimited use of "cut and paste" second party commentary is the equivalent of a "fillibuster" making it impossible for the other side to counter successfully.

Personal prejudice as just now voiced is unwarranted since the provocation that launched the recent criticism by me was an obvious effort to "shout down" the opposition. Since I and my opinions here are very much in the minority I will strongly resist any attempts to overwhelm me with mostly irrelevant volume.

Yes, that would have been an irrational, offensive accusation, wouldn't it? That's probably why I never made it.

I never demanded that the US/British soldiers "must stop and tap each enemy on the shoulder and ask him if he is being forced to fight before we ask him to surrender and then if he won't we're supposed to wait until he kills one of our guys". I never put any of the blame on any individual soldier.

I put part of the blame for the many casualties of this war - both civilian and military, both Iraqi and US/British (there just happen to be many more of the former ...) - on the US and Britain - the countries, that is, or more precisely: the governments - those who sent thoe soldiers in.

You have to remember - to me, and many like me, this very war is illegal. It shouldn't have been, for a variety of reasons (no proven acute necessity, no legal authorisation, etc). So no, of course, soldiers shouldn't be expected to do anything but fight, once they've been sent in. But by starting a war that was not necessary and not legitimised, the American and British governments by definition carry part of the guilt for wahatever deaths will ensue in consequence.

Same with the

That would indeed be quite an unrealistic charge - but then, I never made it. What I have charged is that this war shouldnt have been fought at all, not now, not this way. As for the way it has been fought, I have already remarked several times on how this war seems to be claiming less victims than the old-fashioned wars. My last post relatived this relativation again, though. Just in civilian victims alone, this war has already claimed as many deaths in these two weeks or so, as the war on Yugoslavia did in several months, including military victims. And we really dont know just how many Iraqi soldiers have died in these two weeks, so claims that "we have killed fewer civilians than in any major war in history" would have been more than a bit premature even if Bagdad wasn't also still is to fall.

Your comments about Ge's Parkinson's were COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE, perception, and at this time no explanation or apology is acceptable either.

Gears are grinding, pots aboil shake...in the interim, please continue with issues

Blatham, I fear you may well be right and the demise of the Likudniks is possibly premature. But you NEVER KNOW....

Meanwhile back on the serious topic of the day, I've been thinking of giving some helpful advice to W about N Ireland, with a little test I've devised.

Apologies for being off thread but before W gets off Airforce 1... (come to think of it, I didn't think Aldergrove airport had a runway long enough for a 747... no matter someone somewhere will have a contingency plan..)

1. The capital of Ireland is

Belfast
Doublin'
Dublin
Decreasing

2. Gerry Adams

has a beard like bin Laden
is a terrorist but not like bin Laden
is a Republican
is a Democrat

3. The Primate of all Ireland

is an endangered species
is a Catholic
won't be at the meeting anyway

4. Wolfe Tone

was an Irish blues musician
Was a Protestant revolutionary
is a work of fiction

5. The Dublin Easter Rising 1916 took place

in December 1919
at Eastertime
on Ground hog day
in Edinburgh


6. Rev Dr Ian Paisley is leader of

Sinn Fein
Social Democratic and Labour Party
Evangellical Alliance
DUP
INLA
PUP
UUP
UFF
UVF
IRA
PIRA
UDA
WRP
the band.

(chose only one, extra marks for writing out acronyms in full)

7. Eamonn de Valera was not shot in 1916 because

he was the first President of the Irish Republic
he was a dual citizen of Britain and America
" America and Ireland
The Brits thought he had a posh name.

8. Martin McGuinness, former Derry IRA commander and now Education minister in the N Ireland Assembly has introduced compulsory chemistry lessons for all children.

True or False

9. The IRA's preferred explosive for a 'spectacular' is

RDX
Semtex
Fertiliser and sugar

10. The currency in N Ireland is

The Shilling
The Pound
The Euro
The Eurodollar
They only have a simple barter economy.
1 sheep = 2 groats.

to those that use cut and paste, for whatever reason, may I reccomend 'textpad'

http://www.textpad.com/

search and replace, spell check, works with just about every dot 3 out there.

If you give it a good try you will use it

Steve

That's brilliant!

Gel

Thanks for tip, I'll give it a try.

You're complicating things... it's really a lot simpler than some kind of ideological clash. You simply have impulse control problems related to your making untoward comments here. When that is addressed and acknowledged conclusively, you won't hear complaints about whatever
your opinions happen to be.

This is evolving into a first ammendment issue----there is an element on this thread that wants me removed simply because I don't agree with their point of view. They constantly use charges that I have insulted one their members while ignoring insults hurled at me by those same members.

I have a right to express my views on this thread and those who want me removed are guilty of everything they say they stand for.

May I suggest a simple, concrete suggestion?

I personally would find it very helpful if any copies and excerpts from outside articles were presented in "quote" mode - you just paste in the text, select all of it, and click on the "quote" button. Makes it immediately and visibly clear what is original thought and what outside expertise - plus it makes the quote take up less space.

I agree with perception on the amount of off-topic posts here. "Funny" jokes and stories about George Bush and the like, for example, should go into some kind of thread of its own. US-UN-Iraq nexus only, please.

I am personally not much of a fan of strings of unconfirmed reports on the latest military actions either, considering most of the time they're retracted or modified later anyway - only if, like Timber did, you do follow up with double-check posts in which you note whether the earlier report turned out to be correct or not I think it's useful at all ...