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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 08:39 am
Just in regarding latest Battle Damage Assessment

Estimates say two Iraqi divisions are near the 50% attrition rate

They also believe many of the Iraqi tanks had already been reduced to armored pillboxes because of their inability to move.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 08:44 am
While others, like BBC, say : "Coalition forces have come up against stiff resistance. "
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:02 am
I think I'm going to enjoy being an imperialist for a change! But I'm not sure how I earned it??
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:05 am
"For those interested in the truth..."

Perc
Those who are really interested in the truth ought to actually ATTEND a university. Lind's statement is false in 95% of what it tries to claim and true in 5%. It's a statement rather in the same manner as 'all ex-military men are blood-thirsty, authoritarian war-mongers who beat their wives and children'.
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:06 am
Perception:

And your point was in re: William Lind's article about campus Marxism?

I don't think it pertinent to the US in Iraq at all, and if you infer that those who oppose the war are Marxists...that is a fundamental error in logic.

In regard to your questions yesterday about Vietnam. I was with the 85th Evac Hospital in Qui Nhon, South Vietnam from August 1965-August 1966. My hospital went over as a group by ship and set up after we got there for the coming big build-up. By Thanksgiving, we were getting heavy casualties, including the near rout of US forces at Plei My and the battles of Albany and X-ray of the 1st Cavalry in the Ia Drang Valley. I have the highest regard for Joe Galloway, the reporter that was given a medal for valor during the Ia Drang Valley fight. He has been interviewed on FreshAir on NPR and pretty much has some excoriating things to say about the way this war was planned and then carried out. He is highly respected in military circles and is the military affairs advisor for Knight-Ridder newspapers. The inside information that he has gotten from the Pentagon and the military are evidence of the lack of confidence that the military has with their civilian neo-con bosses.

As a nurse who has cared for wounded soldiers, I can't help but feel pain when I hear of casualties. It just reinflicts some very old unhealed wounds. It is the same for my husband who is a physician...retired Col in the Medical Corps, who was called up for Gulf War I. To us, Vietnam was a war that should not have been fought...history has borne this out, despite what diehard militarists say.

On the topic of "collateral damage", I have personal experience with that subject too. I volunteered in my "free time" in a local Catholic hospital in Qui Nhon to care for infants, children, and adults who were injured by our shells and cleaned and debrided napalm burns. These aren't just euphemisms to those who are injured! Collateral damage will undermine everything we are attempting with this war, for collateral damage began 12 years ago with sanctions and by America leaving the Kurds and the Shiites to their fate after asking them to rise up against Saddam. I think there has been a great miscalculation of the feelings of the Iraqi people. Saddam is a huge monster, but it seems like we have lost the propaganda war. How could we let this happen? Bungling of the highest order.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:11 am
Tartarin

Your avatar clearly demonstrates that you not uncommonly look a gift burro in the mouth. Think how many individuals yearn to be defined in their opposites? The President, for example. Take this new title and bestow freedom and democracy and consumer goods on all.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:11 am
Ketamine wrote:
You Americans are very quiet about Israel's blatant breaches of United Nations reolutions.....maybe Timberlandko, you would be man enough to address this issue

OK, I'll tackle that. First, I want to mention I am not in sympathy with either Israel or The Palestinians, and I see no commitment from either to work toward peace. Both are "Part of the problem", neither are "Part of the solution". Some members of this forum no doubt are familiar with my stance on the issue.

This is extemporaneous, but off the top of my head, my take on the matter of Israel and UN Resolutions compared to Iraq UN Resolutions is that any such comparison is baseless. Arab diplomats have tried to manufacture an issue since the runup to Gulf War I, complaining of a "Double Standard" approach on the part of The West in regard to Israel and Iraq.
The effort ignores fundamental differences among the types and intentions of UN Resolutions.
First, there are General Assembly Resolutions, which are essentially nothing more than commentary, non-binding statements indicative of the endorsement by majority vote of The General Assembly of a particular position on a given issue. General Assembly resolutions are recommendations and carry no mandate.
Second are UN Security Council Resolutions, which may, but need not, carry the weight of UN Mandate calling for specific action, and which may establish sanctions or call for other intervention. Two chapters of The UN Charter define the powers of The Security Council and its resolutions. Chapter VI resolutions address "Pacific Resolution of Disputes" and are implemented through a process of negotiation and arbitration among the states party to the dispute and The UN. Chapter VI resolutions are not "Self-Enforcing", and entail settlement reached via good-faith negotiation among the parties to the dispute. As example, UNSCR 242 and UNSCR 338 are Chapter VI resolutions calling for Israeli withdrawl from certain, but not all, territory occupied by Israel following the '67 "Six Day War", by means of a negotiated settlement among Israel and the neighboring Arab States involved in the dispute. No such settlement has ever been agreed upon, so there is nothing which has been "Breached".
By contrast, the resolutions regarding Iraq from 1990 onward specifically ARE Chapter VII Resolutions, contingent not upon negotiated settlement or other form of agreement among or between interested parties, but upon compliance by a particular State with specific terms as spelled out and mandated in the body of the pertinent resolution. Chapter VII resolutions, as provided under Article 42 of The UN Charter, authorize such special military measures as may be appropriate and required to address a State which ignores or otherwise violates a Chapter VII Resolution.
Israel is not in violation of ANY Chapter VII Resolution. Iraq can make no similar claim. Any attempt to found an argument on Comparison of Israel and Iraq is specious.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:20 am
Is the imposition of 'democracy' even an attainable goal?

Lind's third option from the piece VNN just linked speaks to the difficulties of this project in a country such as Iraq
Quote:
The third possibility is what the adventurers who now run American foreign and defense policy seek: we take Baghdad, liberate Iraq and turn it into a modern, peaceful democracy. The probability of this happening makes a snowball's chances in Hell look pretty good, but even if it does, it too is a long-term disaster. Why? First, because democracy in the Islamic world probably means the election of people like Bin Laden, whose campaign slogan would be, "Death to the Christian and Jewish dogs!" Second, because what the American Establishment means by "freedom and democracy" is Brave New World. And third, because the adventurers, emboldened by success, might then go on to wage war against Iran, Syria, Libya, and possibly North Korea. If their goal is American world hegemony, that goal is certain to drive everyone else into a coalition against us, state and non-state elements alike.

A more thorough discussion of the questions from Tony Judt in the NY Review of Books
Quote:
That "democracy" can be inimical to liberty is hardly a novel thought; it has led many to prefer rule by an uncorrupted civic elite over demagogic manipulation of volatile, uninformed multitudes. The imperfections of modern democracy are troublingly obvious, and Zakaria summarizes them well. States, in his view, don't need to be made more democratic, they need to be sheltered from the perverse pressures generated by unconstrained mass rule. Most democratic theorists would respond that competent administrative elites cannot be conjured up at will; and while minority rights clauses and other constraints are important, it is only the ballot box that can confer public legitimacy. It may be, as Zakaria suggests, that we set too much store by elections and their outcomes. But they are all we have....
Self-generating liberal democracies are historically unusual, even in the West. Like capitalism, they require, in order to succeed, indigenous antecedent qualities that cannot be retroactively supplied. Democratic institutions grafted from abroad onto culturally distinctive and impoverished nations have a mixed track record. America's rediscovered mission, to make the world "safe for democracy," thus risks proving self-defeating, even in its more plausible guise as a mis-sion to make the world safe for Americans. And in the absence of any accompanying ambition to make the rest of the world richer, safer, healthier, or better educated, this mission stands a good chance of constructing and defending some quite unwholesome "democracies."
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:24 am
VNN, love your new avatar. As I mentioned to you once before, the best thing a hurt, confused, scared, lonley grunt can wake up to is the face of a concerned, caring nurse ... even if that face is perched atop Battledress. Been there, done that. Thanks.
And blatham, I particularly appreciate your allowance that such as I are not necessarilly given to domestic violence Twisted Evil
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:36 am
timber

I hate generalities nearly as much as generals.

Wanted to add the following paragraph from Judt's piece separately, as it makes a point I think absolutely critical to the project of 'forced democratization' and why it is likely, often, to fail. The same point also speaks to what it is we in the West got right, but may be in danger of now getting wrong.
Quote:
But, as Fareed Zakaria argues in a new book, the protean qualities of democracy can be misleading.[10] In much of the world, democracy is often the direct heir to authoritarian dictatorship and a substitute for good government. We are all familiar with the late, unlamented "people's democracies," but even in more genuine democracies the spurious legitimacy of public elections frequently obscures infirm and corrupt institutions. The source of Western success and the basis for both free markets and international peace, Zakaria suggests, had been the distinctive tradition of representative government, protected civil freedoms, and public law that originated in northwest Europe (specifically Britain), before migrating across the Atlantic. Democratic voting rights and free elections flow from these blessings; they do not necessarily bring them in their wake. "The 'Western model of government' is best symbolized not by the mass plebiscite but the impartial judge."

Those of who decry the influence of money in politics, or who criticize the looming loss of civil liberties and due process under present Justice Department initiatives, are intuitively or consciously pointing towards the peril of subsuming these antecedents.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:38 am
I don't know where Ketamine gets her/his information about the US and Israel, but I'd like to point out that there is a large group of people in this country who have become horrified by Israel, its special treatment, its violations of Resolutions. This is a group (which I belong to and which many American Jews belong to) which is constantly being accused of being "anti-Semitic" and who put up with a lot of abuse from the political right which sees Israel largely as US territory in the Middle East. It's also a group which tends to be educated and well-travelled, and which can find Australia on a map pretty quickly. It's a group which tends to be scathing also about our media which plays this war as though it's entirely our ("just") war -- Britain is mentioned now and then and Australia very little. In spite of Rupert Murdoch...
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:42 am
VNN wrote:

And your point was in re: William Lind's article about campus Marxism?

My point was that you accepted William Linds article on 4th generation warfare as gosphel but yet you reject his article on Marxism. Your comfort zone is showing.

You wrote further:

To us, Vietnam was a war that should not have been fought...history has borne this out, despite what diehard militarists say.

You either believe that Communism (during that time and circumstance) was a threat or you don't-----I happen to believe it was a threat to me, my family, my country and our way of life.

Having said that I want to say that you and your husband deserve the highest praise for your efforts to save and comfort people on both sides-----You unlike many people on this forum have very real reasons for abhorence for war.

You have earned the right to criticize in any fashion you choose and you will draw no further derogatory comments from me but I do wish you were on my side.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:48 am
Peter Arnett has appologized to the American people for his comment during an interview and has been fired by NBC ---this is the second time he has been fired---the first time was by CNN after the first gulf war.

I heard Arnetts comments to an Iraqi news organization----he should be shot for treason----he definitely gave aid and comfort to the enemy by his comments.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:55 am
perc

It is a logical fallacy to insist that if a speaker is agreed with on one argument, he must therefore be agreed with on all (and obviously, the opposite is the same fallacy - because a speaker is proved wrong on one thing, it doesn't mean all his other claims are inclusively wrong).

The argument is the thing...not the speaker.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 09:58 am
I'm no real fan of Arnett's, perc, and I recall his having been fired a time or two before for his editorial stance and his misapplication of fact or fancy. Still, I think it relevant his interview was from within the bowls of the beast wherein he currently dwells, and may have been influenced in some part by a wish to mollify his handlers and by the sidearms surrounding him. He may have had reason to say what he did, he certainly had a right to say what he did. His employer had both reason and right to fire him. In this matter, I believe Arnett's judgement was less valid than that of those who chose to dispense with his services.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 10:02 am
timber, may I also point out that Peter Arnett acknowledges exactly what you write. A very unique experience in today's world of always being right under every circumstance.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 10:02 am
Blathma wrote:

It is a logical fallacy to insist that if a speaker is agreed with on one argument, he must therefore be agreed with on all (and obviously, the opposite is the same fallacy - because a speaker is proved wrong on one thing, it doesn't mean all his other claims are inclusively wrong).

The argument is the thing...not the speaker.

Thanks for your observation oh learned one----I bow to your omnipotence.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 10:04 am
Blatham, that is an important article to bring it. Zakaria though continues to explain his distinction in 'Illiberal Democracy': which is what he means by the mass plebiscite. He claims the plain democracy, which he defines (wrongly, I believe) as free and fair election (nothing else) is very dangerous without the 'liberal' tradition: representative government, horizontal accountability, participation of the public in political life,.... However I think that when we refer to democracy today, we refer to a combination of both of these terms.
yet it is true that for iraq the democratization will come first and may easily get out of hand. That is probably what was meant by the article, and it remains to be seen how the outside supervision of Iraqi 'democracy' that will be established after the war will fare with the Iraqi public. I am very disgruntled at the US insistence that this will be done by the U.S. itself, I believe it is not beneficial to anyone and it can hit the U.S. in its face as well. I believe the UN supervision would be more tolerated and thus more succesful in the long run.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 10:09 am
Timber wrote:

<I think it relevant his interview was from within the bowls of the beast wherein he currently dwells, and may have been influenced in some part by a wish to mollify his handlers and by the sidearms surrounding him.>

He's a big boy Timber and should not have placed himself in that position----his appology says it all ------ he screwed up in his attempt to further aggrandize himself at the expense of any and all people who have ever known him-----he can live in disgrace forever I hope but unfortunately people like him have elephant skin.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Mar, 2003 10:10 am
Perception, on the basis of your argument what Blatham said cannot be a blow to his omnipotence, for if one of his arguments is wrong it does not dismiss the whole of his person, right? ;-)
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