Death Penalty Opponents, This Is Who You Champion

By all means do not consider my opinions in context or include any qualifying or explanatory statements that accompanied them.

But please cite any studies you may have that compare the murder/viscious crime rate as related to the death penalty. I would, however, suggest that it will be most useful to cite studies from countries with similar demographics and similar legal process as is found in the United States, and any that address the particular problem of enforcing law and achieving justice when some commit worse crimes after receiving the ultimate 'life in prison with no hope of parole' penalty.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

But please cite any studies you may have that compare the murder/viscious crime rate as related to the death penalty.

I'm not really sure what this debate is about, but I'm in research mode tonight so I'll look those facts up for you.

Quote:

I would, however, suggest that it will be most useful to cite studies from countries with similar demographics and similar legal process as is found in the United States,

I can do one step better... twelve states of the united states don't have capital punishment.

So let's compare

No death penalty: Alaska, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia and Wisconsin

With the states that have performed the most executions and allow the death penalty: Texas, Virginia, Florida, Missouri, Louisiana, Georgia and South Carolina.

All states I will try to compare as close to the year 2000 as possible to keep the basis of comparison equal. I'm choosing murder as it is most certainly a violent crime and the most likely to be eligible for death sentences.

Murder rates in states where death penalty is banned.

Alaska 4.3 per 100,000
Hawaii 2.9 per 100,000
Iowa 1.6 per 100,000
Maine 1.2 per 100,000
Massachusetts 2.0 per 100,000
Michigan 6.7 per 100,000
Minnesota 3.1 per 100,000
North Dakota 0.6 per 100,000
Rhode Island 4.3 per 100,000
Vermont 1.5 per 100,000
West Virginia couldn't find statistics... sorry
Wisconsin 3.2 per 100,000

Average 2.854 per 100,000

Compared with death penalty states

Texas 5.9 per 100,000
Virginia 5.7 per 100,000
Florida 5.6 per 100,000
Missouri 6.2 per 100,000
Louisiana 12.5 per 100,000
Georgia 8.0 per 100,000
South Carolina 5.8 per 100,000

Average 7.1 per 100,000

Thus the murder rate is 2.48 times higher in those states which allow capital punishment than those which don't (excluding west virginia, again my apologies).

Do with these statistics as you wish.

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

Is there a passage in the bible "vengeance is mine says the lord" or something to that effect. Well, if it's good enough for him it should certainly be good enough for me.

Interesting side note from my research, Vatican City State banned the death penalty in 1969. Very amusing for an atheist such as myself.

0 Replies

watchmakers
That statement was written with tongue in cheek. As for the bible and religion they are two fables concocted by the fertile minds of men. Regarding the Vatican's stand on the matter. Anything they are in favor of I am against. As I said religion is built upon fables and Catholicism is no exception.

0 Replies

Yes, those statistics have already been posted I think on this thread Watchmakers. They also include 19 states. What about the other 33 states?
Would including those give a very different impression?

We used to have a saying: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Even if the stats posted do give an accurate impression, the problem with these kinds of comparisons is that they don't factor in demographics or the level of violent crime that would not be subject to the death penalty. They don't show 'before and after' affects when a death penalty is put into force or rescinded, or the length of time between conviction and carrying out an execution. California, for instance, has the death penalty, but I don't think they have used it in decades. Scott Peterson was recently sentenced to death, but given the track record out there, he could die from old age before he is actually executed. (And personally, if I had been on the jury, I probably would not have voted for the death penalty in his case as it was built on very damning circumstantial evidence, but it was circumstantial evidence just the same.)

The statistics don't factor in the crimes committed by persons serving life sentences in states where they are not at risk for the death penalty.

I respect the views of those who oppose the death penalty and, for the most part, I agree with most of their reasons. But I just think there are those crimes that are so cruel, so viscious, so unthinkable, that there must be an ultimate penalty.

0 Replies

blatham wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Blatham: I would imagine the statistics would show an overwhelming percentage of males are sent to prison and death row, as compared to females. If so, are we to conclude that the system unfairly discriminates against the male population?

Or ... (if I was President of Harvard I might risk my employment by suggesting the following, but ... ) is there a slight chance that males commit more crimes and capital murders than females, and because of that, there are more of them in prison and death row?

You'll recall that the US Supreme Court, in 72, declared Georgia's death penalty unconstitutional because of racism.

No, I don't recall that. I recall it was declared unconstitutional because they determined it constituted cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments. The Furman v. Georgia 1972 opinion is brief:

Quote:

Petitioner in No. 69-5003 was convicted of murder in Georgia and was sentenced to death pursuant to Ga. Code Ann. § 26-1005 (Supp. 1971) (effective prior to July 1, 1969). 225 Ga. 253, 167 S. E. 2d 628 (1969). Petitioner in No. 69-5030 was convicted of rape in Georgia and was sentenced to death pursuant to Ga. Code Ann. § 26-1302 (Supp. 1971) (effective prior to July 1, 1969). 225 Ga. 790, 171 S. E. 2d 501 (1969). Petitioner in No. 69-5031 was convicted of rape in Texas and was sentenced to death pursuant to Tex. Penal Code, Art. 1189 (1961). 447 S. W. 2d 932 (Ct. Crim. App. 1969). Certiorari was granted limited to the following question: "Does the imposition and carrying out of the death penalty in [these cases] constitute cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments?" 403 U.S. 952 (1971). The Court holds that the imposition and carrying out of the death penalty in these cases constitute cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments. The judgment in each case is therefore reversed insofar as it leaves undisturbed the death sentence imposed, and the cases are remanded for further proceedings.

In the concurrences, several justices imply the statistics raise possibility that racial discrimination plays a role in determining which criminals receive the death penalty ... one noting: "The statistics that have been referred to us cover periods when Negroes were systematically excluded from jury service and when racial segregation was the official policy in many States. Data of more recent vintage are essential." A lot of death penalty cases were for "interracial rape."

-----

We had a case here where two brothers (and by that I mean they were brothers) Jonathan and Reginald Carr, invaded a house, took 5 friends hostage -- 3 male, 2 female -- tied them all up, took turns raping each of them, took them to ATM machines, then took them all to a secluded field and shot each one in the back of the head, execution style. They then ran over their victims with the victims' own car. They then went back to the house, and proceeded to steal everything they could. They were identified because one of the 5 survived. They were convicted of capital murder in the 4 deaths, and one other killing that happened a week or so prior. They both received the death penalty.

These were horrendous crimes, and the worst in recent memory here .... their death sentences were entirely justified. The fact that the killers were black and the victims were white is the result of the fact that the killers hated white people and apparently singled them out because of that -- a fact that came out during the trial -- but does not demonstrate the death penalty is unfairly discriminatory against these two based on their race.

0 Replies

watchmakers guidedog wrote:

West Virginia couldn't find statistics... sorry

Found it.

West Virginia 2.5 per 100,000

Thus making the average for non-death penalty states 3.0 and the average for death penalty states 2.3 times higher.

au wrote:

That statement was written with tongue in cheek.

Gosh, it was... shock/horror. As (quite obviously) was mine.

Quote:

As for the bible and religion they are two fables concocted by the fertile minds of men.

Really?

Quote:

Regarding the Vatican's stand on the matter. Anything they are in favor of I am against.

I can only assume that you speak in broad generalisation and exagerate your statement for effect.

0 Replies

watchmakers guidedog wrote:

Thus making the average for non-death penalty states 3.0 and the average for death penalty states 2.3 times higher.

... the obvious interpretation of which is that some states have a low murder rate, so didn't need a deterrent as efficient as the death penalty -- right?

0 Replies

now,do the comparison again,this time factor in population,overall crime rate,and income levels.I bet you will get a lot different set of numbers.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

Yes, those statistics have already been posted I think on this thread Watchmakers.

Sorry, as you may have gathered I only recently rejoined this thread.

Quote:

They also include 19 states. What about the other 33 states?

... you just want me to do a tonne of work, don't you. Tell you what. Look it up yourself.

http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?file=/ucr/cius_00/xl/00tbl05.xls

if that doesn't work it's table 5 on this page

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/00cius.htm

Quote:

Would including those give a very different impression?

Not having been bothered to check them... I don't know. Possibly. I considered doing the 12 top states for execution, to balance them out numerically but frankly after the top 7 found it exceptionally boring. You have the same statistics as me. Check them out yourself.

Quote:

We used to have a saying: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Stupid saying. Statistics can never lie unless they're inaccurately reported. Statistics are only ever a "lie" to stupid or uneducated people who aren't familiar with scientific method or how statistics work. You've demonstrated this yourself by spotting the lazy ommission of 33 states in the statistics I provided.

Quote:

The problem with these kinds of comparisons is that they don't factor in demographics or the level of violent crime that would not be subject to the death penalty. They don't show 'before and after' affects when a death penalty is put into force or rescinded, or the length of time between conviction and carrying out an execution.

Oh sheesh. Next time don't ask for something you don't want. You specifically requested a comparison of violent crime rates to the death penalty in a country similar to America. I gave you it. Now you complain.

Last time I do you a favour.

Quote:

The statistics don't factor in the crimes committed by persons serving life sentences in states where they are not at risk for the death penalty.

Pardon. That phrase made no sense whatsoever.

Quote:

I respect the views of those who oppose the death penalty and, for the most part, I agree with most of their reasons.

Uh, do you think that I oppose the death penalty? I am for it. I just believe in accurate statistics and doing things for the correct reasons. I'm not going to lie or give false information to support a cause I believe in.

Does the death penalty (as it currently exists) discourage crime? Of course not. Are crime rates lower in states with the death penalty. Evidently not.

Yet I still think capital punishment is a good idea.

0 Replies

death penalty worldwide

Blue: Abolished for all crimes
Green: Abolished for crimes not committed in exceptional circumstances (such as crimes committed in time of war)
Orange: Abolitionist in Practice
Red: Legal Form of Punishment

0 Replies

Interesting OE. I wonder how the murder rate in the green part of South America compares with the murder rate in the United States? It wouldn't prove anything of course, but it would be interesting to know.

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

... the obvious interpretation of which is that some states have a low murder rate, so didn't need a deterrent as efficient as the death penalty -- right?

1) States with a more violent average nature are both more likely to allow capital punishment AND commit murder.
2) States with a murder problem are more likely to heckle government for more action against criminals.

Lol. And it is no doubt a far more complex tangle of causes and effects than that.

The statistics I gave proved nothing. Foxfyre wanted them though so I thought I might as well provide them. However the death penalty (as it currently exists) isn't an effective deterrent at all. It does nothing.

0 Replies

watchmakers guidedog wrote:

The statistics I gave proved nothing. Foxfyre wanted them though so I thought I might as well provide them. However the death penalty (as it currently exists) isn't an effective deterrent at all. It does nothing.

Well, there is a more sophisticated variant of the statistics you have been offering. They use regressions to check for other relevant variables that might influence capital crime rates, and time series to separate cause from effect. The outcome of those more sophisticated analyses depends a lot on the details of the model used by the analysts, and come out either way. This suggests to me that our underlying data just isn't good enough to know whether or not the death penalty deters more murderers than it kills convicts.

0 Replies

What I wonder is: obviously all of the western democracies seem to be fine without having capital punishment. Are crime rates higher or lower without the death penalty? I don't know. Would those countries which have abolished the death penalty go back to it if they saw an increase of crime rates? I don't think so.

So what is the purpose of capital punishment? To sum up some of the conclusions from this thread:

- I does not advance justice, because in taking another life, you can't give back a life.
- The factor of deterrence doesn't seem to be evident at all.
- It doesn't make society a lot saver. Yes, a killer could escape and kill again. Goes both ways, because an innocent man could be executed and there would be no way of reverting it.

I agree that there are some crimes where I would feel that the punishment should be death. Saw an interview with Helen Prejean yesterday. She said that she knows of 118 people who got off the death row, because it turned out that serious mistakes had been made. Including cases where witnesses had been bought, DNA material been withheld, blood analyses not been made...

There were also interviews with families who had lost someone in the Oklahoma bombing. Many of them said that seeing McVeigh die didn't change anything for them. The damage had been done, they had lost a loved one, and nothing would have changed that.

Those who cheered the death of McVeigh were people who hadn't been involved at all, who didn't even know the victims.

Made me think.

0 Replies

I don't disagree with any argument you have made OE except, as Thomas has said, there are too many variables within the statistics to know conclusively whether the death penalty deters or not.

In an earlier post I stated my conviction that the death penalty should be utilized only when there is no possible margin of error as to the guilt of the convicted party.

As someone said earlier, of course the death penalty doesn't advance justice. But it does apply justice according to the law of the land.

I continue to believe for those most viscious, cruel, and unthinkable crimes, there must be a penalty that can be applied beyond life imprisonment. Otherwise there is no incentive to stop short of the most heinous crimes.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

I continue to believe for those most viscious, cruel, and unthinkable crimes, there must be a penalty that can be applied beyond life imprisonment. Otherwise there is no incentive to stop short of the most heinous crimes.

Deterrence. That's what you're talking about, isn't it? But would it deter people who commit 'the most viscious, cruel, and unthinkable crimes'?

0 Replies

OE writes

Quote:

Deterrence. That's what you're talking about, isn't it? But would it deter people who commit 'the most viscious, cruel, and unthinkable crimes'?

Deterrance is part of it. Years ago one of my favorite sections in the library was the 'True Crimes" area with books about and by criminals. Some acknowledged they were confident of being able to avoid capture and some committed murder knowing full well they could be on death row. But some said they were careful not to kill somebody or worried their partner might kill somebody because they were in a death penalty state. Though a very small sampling, this suggests that for at least some, there is a deterrant factor. I would guess those might even be in the minority though.

We don't know whether there would be more deterrance if the time between conviction and carrying out of the sentence was significantly shortened. Right now a convicted murderer can count on living another 10 to 20 years or more before the execution will be carried out. That would look like a lifetime to some.

But even if there is no significant deterrance, there still should be an ultimate penalty for those who commit those most terrible of crimes beyond what would normally send a person to life imprisonment with no hope of parole.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

But even if there is no significant deterrance, there still should be an ultimate penalty for those who commit those most terrible of crimes beyond what would normally send a person to life imprisonment with no hope of parole.

Why?

0 Replies

And what about those who did murder and ask for the death penalty versus life in prison? If the only option was life in prison, would that then deter them from committing the crime?

You can twist whatever facts there are to fit your need when you want to.

0 Replies

Death Penalty Opponents, This Is Who You Champion

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know