1
   

Terrorist Attacks Have INCREASED! But, Don't Report It!

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 09:46 pm
BM

(& awaiting further enlightenment ... Confused )
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 10:08 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Furthermore, our efforts against Iraq were not really directed against terrorism. They were intended to address weapons proliferation.
[/b][/color][/size]

I thought we decided that after Bush attacked Iraq through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN because of faulty intelligence :wink:


huhh.. i could swear i heard that it was to free the liberty craving iraqis from the tyranny of our old partner in the war on terrorists in iran, saddam hussein...

The reason given at the time we invaded was WMD, and this was the reason why we had to invade. Now that no WMD have been found, other aspects of the invasion are played up, of course, but the real problem posed by Iraq concerned the unknown state of its compliance with its pledge to destroy WMD and WMD programs.

I note in passing that you seem to have real indifference to the fact that the Iraqis were, in fact, brutally oppressed, and that now they have a chance, at least, for representative democracy. It would be a good thing if you were to stop mocking the attempt to bring them democracy, and try to support it.


Intrepid wrote:
Hmm, do I understand this correctly. Iraq had to be overtaken because they had WMD that were a threat to America, and possibly other countries. For this reason, Iraq was attacked. Lo and behold, no WMD were found.

This part is correct.

Intrepid wrote:
[Go to plan B ... Stop the terrorist threat. Uh, oh, better go to plan C ... The Iraq people were bruttally oppressed so now that is the reason for invasion.

Not what I said or meant. I said unequivocally that the reason why Iraq had to be invaded was because of the history and probabilities regarding WMD, and that it was not particularly an anti-terrorism thing. As for the rest of it, all that is happened is that since no WMD were found, other positive aspects of the invasion, such as democratization, are being played up. The proper reason to have invaded is the one that was stated at the time - the danger posed by WMD. This is not very complicated.

Intrepid wrote:
Terrorism increases because Iraq insurgents are attaching U.S. forces. Hmm, their country has been attacked and they are fighting back. Based on plan C.....is there consideration of an invasion of China?
I pointed out clearly in a previous post that the idea that using your military means that the enemy will immediately begin to fight back less is simply silly. An intelligent person will look at the array of dangers and seek to neutralize them as best as possible. Hussein was a homicidal dictator who had been developing WMD, therefore, he had to be dealt with. The idea that engaging dangers must instantly decrease them is very foolish short term thinking.

I did not advocate invading China, so why do you find it necessary to put those words in my mouth. You can win any argument, no matter how wrong you are, if you write the words for both sides.

Intrepid wrote:
It is certainly not my attention to make light of this situation (particularly given the fact that soldiers of the U.S. and other countries are being wounded and worse....they are just doing their job and had no say in what direction things would take)

I am just confused over the whole thing.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 10:17 pm
I need a really good Newspeak dictionary.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Apr, 2005 10:50 pm
Quote:
Brandon9000 wrote I did not advocate invading China, so why do you find it necessary to put those words in my mouth. You can win any argument, no matter how wrong you are, if you write the words for both sides.


I did not attribute those words to you...they are my words. If I was going to use your words, I would have quoted them. I was simply asking the question.....If the reason now being given for the invation of Iraq is that their people were oppressed, does that mean that there is justification for invading China as well.

I an not arguing with you, I am just trying to understand the situation and made a couple of comments of my own.

Must be a full moon or something...2nd time in two posts that I have been misunderstood
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 12:25 am
Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Brandon9000 wrote I did not advocate invading China, so why do you find it necessary to put those words in my mouth. You can win any argument, no matter how wrong you are, if you write the words for both sides.


I did not attribute those words to you...they are my words. If I was going to use your words, I would have quoted them. I was simply asking the question.....If the reason now being given for the invation of Iraq is that their people were oppressed, does that mean that there is justification for invading China as well.

I an not arguing with you, I am just trying to understand the situation and made a couple of comments of my own.

Must be a full moon or something...2nd time in two posts that I have been misunderstood

Iraq was invaded because Hussein had possessed WMD and WMD programs, had a long history of concealing them, and had not produced proof of the destruction of many of them after more than a decade. That is the reason given for the invasion, and that is the legitimate justification. It was, however, nice to be able to free a hideously, hideously oppressed people while in the neighborhood. That was a fringe benefit, though, not the reason why we invaded. Naturally, the subsidiary benefits get mentioned more often, now that no WMD were found. If Bush invaded for some other reason, which I don't believe for a second, then it only means that he did the right thing for the wrong reason.

China has WMD too, but we never said that nobody can have them, just that unstable, homicidal madmen can't. Furthermore, even if China fell into the "can't possess WMD" category, which it doesn't, it is too late since China already has lots of them, including lots of nukes. We do not possess the option of invading a nuclear power, since they could kill people by the million in the first hour of invasion.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 08:17 am
Let me try and simplify

!. A shitty president becomes president in a shady way.

2. He soon finds that he's not popular particularly and has no real ideas or mandate for making his mark which really matters to him because he's a borderline psychopathic megalomaniac.

3. The biggest reason he's been put in is to front his corporate masters who want to globalize the financial and therefore power base.

4. He don't like that snake in the grass Saddam Hussein anyway, so he decides to start a war with him. After all he's got his snake in the grass business partners on payroll so why not use the people who know him best against him?

5. 9/11 happens and holds him up for a bit, but then it's on to the program.

6. The Bush team puts into play a simple plan. Set your goal first, stick to it, and then everything that happens can be moulded to fit that goal so you can make it up as you go and proceed with the understanding that the people you were elected to serve will believe any goddam thing if you tell it to them over and over again, especially if they're scared shitless and if the desire to be comfortable and SHOP is what they really care about and they're willing to listen to anything as long as they can continue to go to the mall and get 350 channels.

&. Latch on to a few simple real life "General Hospital" type issues to blow up in the press 24/7 to distract everyone, and voila!!! You go about the business of war for the two real reasons you went, and the only ones that really matter. The consolidation of your financial and power base, the satisfaction of your own ego.


Of course that's just my opinion, and I might be wrong. It's certainly not an opinion that's more far fetched than any other , and at least my opinion remains constant.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 03:32 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Furthermore, our efforts against Iraq were not really directed against terrorism. They were intended to address weapons proliferation.
[/b][/color][/size]

I thought we decided that after Bush attacked Iraq through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN because of faulty intelligence :wink:


huhh.. i could swear i heard that it was to free the liberty craving iraqis from the tyranny of our old partner in the war on terrorists in iran, saddam hussein...

Brandon9000 wrote:
The reason given at the time we invaded was WMD, and this was the reason why we had to invade. Now that no WMD have been found, other aspects of the invasion are played up, of course, but the real problem posed by Iraq concerned the unknown state of its compliance with its pledge to destroy WMD and WMD programs.


i really don't want to go through all of this again... but, let's be clear that despite what bush said/says, the inspections were ongoing and the initial opinions were that it didn't look like much of anything was going to turn up. but bush and his bunch wanted to take iraq. they kept throwing out wmd. and as it turns out, no, nothing of substance has turned up. period. and the administration figured that out with in days of the invasion. odd, don't you think, considering they repeatedly claimed to "know just where they are". so in an effort to save face, the plan b rationalizations started coming fast and furious.

Brandon9000 wrote:
I note in passing that you seem to have real indifference to the fact that the Iraqis were, in fact, brutally oppressed, and that now they have a chance, at least, for representative democracy. It would be a good thing if you were to stop mocking the attempt to bring them democracy, and try to support it.


i'm not the type of person that wants any innocent person to suffer. but i am pragmatic. if there's any indifference, it's on the part of the iraqi majority that did almost nothing to rid themselves of hussein over the course of 25 years. as i've mentioned before, and posssibly in a discussion with you, our firends from iraq have told us that the army was generally not in support of saddam (and was proven when they put up only enough fight to avoid being shot in the back by the upper brass, who were more in support of him.

there were no wmd. we should not be there. but since we are, it has to be made to work in some fashion. in that way, i do support the effort. and the kids over there doing the dangerous work.

but i don't support the people that put their own agenda over doing the same due diligence for the afghanis, a people who deserve, appreciate and need our help far more. as do the cubans, lebanese, rwandans and the taiwanese.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 05:25 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Let me try and simplify

!. A shitty president becomes president in a shady way.



Etc etc. Have you been watching Michael Moore? Or -- are you Moore? Very Happy
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 05:27 pm
Ed's blonde. He can't be Michael Moore.
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 05:48 pm
BVT ..... Gosh darn, I find myself fully agreeing with you. Must be something wrong wiith me Laughing
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 05:54 pm
I don't need this sort of constant insult and denigration of my opinions I'm far too sensitive for that, ehebth of all people knows that.

You big bullies are wounding me beyond redemption. <sniff>
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 05:57 pm
I guess for those that don't read or watch the news this must be shocking. For those of us that do watch and read the news, it really isn't news at all.

Do you really think a govt report is going to make the difference in a case like this? We all know that there has been an increase of terrorist attacks in places like Iraq, it is on the news every day.
0 Replies
 
littlefairyfromnam
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 06:16 pm
I'm just wondering.. why haven't we attacked N Korea yet? Brandon 9000 said that only "unstable, homicidal madmen" can't have them. And since he probably does...
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 07:17 pm
What about Pakistan? They ran a whole sale business in nuclear bomb technology and we just rewarded them with F16's.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 07:26 pm
Acquiunk wrote:
What about Pakistan? They ran a whole sale business in nuclear bomb technology and we just rewarded them with F16's.


Got to deliver them somehow.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 07:50 pm
Lookit you guys, Iraq was always the target. They could have stripped naked and opened every manhole in the country to inspections and the Marines would have landed anyway. Please try to get with the program.

We kicked out the Taliban in Afghanistan or at least out of Kabul. There are still more al Queda fighters in Kashmir, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia than there ever were in Iraq but Iraq was always the target. Hell, there are more al Queda types in the jungles of the Philippines than there ever were in Iraq, but that's not the fight this administration wanted to fight.

As for North Korea, the Bush administration is praying, and I do mean praying, that the Chinese will do the intervening, but this Hu Jintao is no dummy. He's probably been lighting some joss sticks down at the temple praying that we decide to whack the Beloved Dear Leader.

The odd thing about these boys and Condeleeza is that they want to do everything on their own, but they haven't got a clue about what to do.

Here's a hint: Al Queda is an organism composed of interchangeable cells. Now what would a doctor do if diseased cells were attacking the body? Send an Army? A regular Army? No, inoculation is the key. An active antibiotic is the cure. You tell me. Are they thinking this way?


Joe(Dr. Rice still thinks the greatest threat to the US is Russia.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Apr, 2005 08:28 pm
If preventing arms proliferation was the purpose, Bush's solution has been less than a run away success.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/international/middleeast/17equipment.html

Arms Equipment Plundered in 2003 Is Surfacing in Iraq
By JAMES GLANZ

Published: April 17, 2005 New York Times

"KIRKUK, Iraq, April 16 - Equipment plundered from dozens of sites in Saddam Hussein's vast complex for manufacturing weapons is beginning to surface in open markets in Iraq's major cities and at border crossings."

"Interviews with people who identified themselves as arms dealers or members of the resistance in Baghdad, Falluja and other Iraqi cities indicate that a parallel black market operates in the explosives looted from some of the same sites. In fact, sketchy descriptions by members of the Iraqi resistance suggest that the arms market is also a highly developed enterprise with brokers, buyers and looters who have stockpiled their products, including artillery shells, mortar rounds and Kalashnikov rifles. One former Iraqi army officer who said that he had joined the mujahedeen said that in Sadr City, for example, a few trusted brokers would take prospective buyers to weapons caches that ranged in size from a few rounds buried in a garden to whole rooms of ordnance. If the broker and the buyers agreed on a price, the buyers would arrive a day or two later with a vehicle to drive their purchases away. The broker and the stockpilers would have worked out their respective cuts in advance."
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 01:21 am
Joe Nation wrote:
There are still more al Queda fighters in Kashmir, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia than there ever were in Iraq but Iraq was always the target. Hell, there are more al Queda types in the jungles of the Philippines than there ever were in Iraq,


i suspect that there are more al qaida in the usa than in iraq.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 03:28 am
Quote:
i suspect that there are more al qaida in the usa than in iraq.


Luckily for us we have an administration which is ready to spring into action a moment's notice. If there a crisis of any kind the President is ready to hop in a plane, even if he is vacationing, to return to Washington to sign legislation.


Joe(Some crises ineligible: See Tsunamis.)Nation
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Apr, 2005 05:01 am
Quote:
Brandon9000
Iraq was invaded because Hussein had[/u] possessed WMD and WMD programs, had a long history of concealing them, and had not produced proof of the destruction of many of them after more than a decade. That is the reason given for the invasion, and that is the legitimate justification.


Let me get this straight.

The USA HAS a long history of possessing WMDs, HAS had a long history of concealing them, HAS used them in the past, HAS expressed a desire to develop new WMDs, ...

Israel HAS a fairly long history of possessing WMDs, HAS had a long history of concealing them, ...

Sounds like it's only dangerous for a country if you've HAD them. Then you're in deep doggy do-doo. Is it any wonder that other countries don't want to give up any weapons capability faced as they are, with the schizophrenic nature of US foreign policy?

Let's finish up with some more facts.

Quote:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts.htm
Since 1992, the United States has exported more than $142 billion dollars worth of weaponry to states around the world.[1] The U.S. dominates this international arms market, supplying just under half of all arms exports in 2001, roughly two and a half times more than the second and third largest suppliers. [2 ] U.S. weapons sales help outfit non-democratic regimes, soldiers who commit gross human rights abuses against their citizens and citizens of other countries, and forces in unstable regions on the verge of, in the middle of, or recovering from conflict.

U.S.-origin weapons find their way into conflicts the world over. The United States supplied arms or military technology to more than 92% of the conflicts under way in 1999.[3] The costs to the families and communities afflicted by this violence is immeasurable. But to most arms dealers, the profit accumulated outweighs the lives lost. In the period from 1998-2001, over 68% of world arms deliveries were sold or given to developing nations, where lingering conflicts or societal violence can scare away potential investors.[4]

Of course, a loss of investment opportunities is not the only way Americans are impacted by the weapons trade. In addition to paying billions of dollars every year to support weapons exports, Americans may also feel the impact of increasing instability overseas. The United States military has had to face troops previously trained by its own military or supplied with U.S. weaponry in Panama, Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, and now in Afghanistan. Due to the advanced capabilities these militaries have acquired from past U.S. training and sales, the U.S. had to invest much more money and manpower in these conflicts than would have otherwise been needed.

There are few restrictions on whom the government may export arms to. One notable exception is the Leahy Law, which prohibits U.S. military aid or training to foreign military units known to have committed human rights abuses. Under the Pentagon's interpretation of the law, however, these restrictions may be lifted if the foreign government filters out the "few bad apples" in that particular unit. An International Code of Conduct on Arms Sales is also being negotiated with other arms exporters in the hopes of creating a common set of export criteria.



"Ah, horsepucky," says Brandon and Timberlandko, "probably a terrorist website, intent on slandering the good ole US of A."

FAS stands for Federation of American Scientists.
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