Pope's Last Hours On Earth: Your Reaction?

As a non Catholic I believe the Pope scored much better in the world arena than he did in his own house. Future problems in the Catholic Church will be laid at his doorstep.

Panzade:

Yes, in fairness it should be pointed out about his possible role in getting the Eastern European countries to break away from Russian domination. That is over 100 million people.

Some people give the Pope a great deal of the credit for that, some not so much. If the Pope did have a significant role in that, that would probably overshadow the child molestation issue.

Still, the child molestation issue went on over 20 years before anyone did anything. The press was so cowed by fear of losing 25% of their audience that they really let it slide, as did all the politicians. But it has been known for 20 years that this had been going on.

What was the Pope's reaction? Rearrange the bureaucracy a little and issue an order that if a priest is caught molesting kids, DO NOT notify authorities.

In other words, time fo the Catholic Church to CYA.

Hard to work up muuch enthusiasm for someone like that as a moral leader.

The child abuse issues go back many decades before this pope became pope.

It's only since he became pope that the church began to react in anything nearing an appropriate manner.

Still too little, too late, but can't lay matters from the 1940's and 1950's at his feet.

He was an interesting choice for pope at the time.

Not being of the Catholic faith I have the same feeling of sympathy I would have for the passing of any well known world figure.

Actually, I was referring to changes in the Vatican that were implemented to consolidate power.

The first thing I think of is how sad my mother-in-law will be.

I have never been Catholic and have no particular bad feelings about the Pope. There are a lot of things he has said and done that I disagree with, but there are also a lot of good things he's done. And it's pretty much always sad when someone reaches the end of his or her life.

I can't imagine "dancing in the streets" when the pope dies. He was a man of his convictions and didn't mind chiding any world leader who was at odds with those beliefs. That was, and is, refreshing in times of opinion poll politics.

As a non-Catholic, I will miss John Paul. I believe his legacy was cemented when he stood behind his Polish countrymen, Solidarity, and Lech Walesa at what was one of the truly pivotal moments in postwar geopolitics. The world held its collective breath in anticipation of the Soviet reaction to the Polish challenge -- but it was not 1956 or 1968 -- and The Bear blinked. The Poles were no more stalwart than the Czechs or Hungarians. The Soviets simply did not want to take on the Catholic church and its pope, which proved to be the beginning of the end for atheistic communism.

I pity the next pope. He has huge shoes to fill.

<A Whooda sighting!!!>

This Pope likely seemed incredibly conservative to a lot of people--with the rules against women in the pulpit, holding the line on the Biblical definition for birth control, and other issues...

I disagreed heartily with some of his views on those issues--but then again, being a Christian, I have to realize they weren't HIS views, but they are the word for word directions written in the Bible. So, I don't fault him so much. All he's doing is underlining the Book he was elected to preach and defend.

On the overwhelmingly positive side, this Pope bore the responsibility of heinous crap perpetrated on the world by Popes in the Middle Ages.

He apologized for the Church's part in the murder of Galileo, their indifference and/or culpability in criminal treatment of Jews, the Crusades--he attempted to make peace with Muslims, Jews, ... You'll likely never see another of his calibre. They are usually administrators, figureheads,... This was IMO a truly sincere, humble, goodhearted man.

My only grave disappointment was his notable mild response to his pedophilic priests. I do think his severe incapacitation during the revelation may have kept him from reacting as he would have when he was younger, and healthier.

I have no respect for the position of Pope, but I did respect the man who happened to hold the position for the past 26 years.

Well said...

We all have to die eventually & the pope's time has come.

Nicely put, Lash, especially this last thought. I, too, would like to think a younger, stronger John Paul would have dealt more decisively with the priest scandal as he certainly was an advocate for the disenfranchised. If only ...


<<< L ~ Yep, I'm still around if for no other reason than to catch your incredibly lucid and succinct posts. You do the good fight proud. :wink: >>>

...<blush>

He had a good run, did some good things and now he's headed to his Jesus at an appropriate age. He wasn't assassinated or taken young. There is nothing extraordinary going on here.

The Bear didn't blink. Have you forgotten the Soviet Union supported crackdwon by Jauruzelski in 1981? Remember the pictures of the tanks in the streets?
http://www.answers.com/topic/wojciech-jaruzelski

Walesa was jailed.

He would not come to power until 1990 or so. By that time, the Soviet Union was breaking up on it's own.

There is not much question that during the break away of the Soviet republics, being Catholic was cool thing to be since the Soviets were against churches. But how much of that was the Pope's actual doing, and how much of it was simply that the young people of the time wanted to rub it in the faces of the Kremlin?

The Pope might have been an inspiring figure for the people behind the breakaway, but what did the Pope actually do, besides provide a figure for anti-Kremlin emotions to coalesce?

The allegations came to light starting in 1984.
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/catholic_crisis/timeline.html

They continued all the way through, and got a big, big boost with the revelation that Father Bruce Ritter, the poster boy for Catholic social action, was in fact a serial molester. Subsequent investigations showed that Covenant House, the home for runaways that got such big press, was in fact an excuse for building a slush fund of millions of dollars for building a child molesting network.

In other words, Bruce Ritter was not a man trying to do good works but falling victim to an uncontrollable desire, but a manipulator who had it all planned out from the get-go.

During the time the Pope was strong enough to allegedly bring on the downfall of the Soviet Empire-and opinion is mixed on the size of his role in that-he was made well aware of what was going on with his priests. He was not too frail to do anything about it. Instead, he came up with a series of cosmetic changes and made sure that priests would not have to be reported to local authorities.

In other words, he was out to protect the interests of the Catholic church,and to hell with the consequences to the children and parents who trusted the priests.

Look, I am willing to balance the child molestation scandal against other good the man has done. But it seems to me that the Pope's role is being exaggerated somewhat in the good works department, and played down in the child molestation department.

I really don't want to detract from the purpose of your thread (non-Catholic reaction to the Pope's impending death) but I believe it's not really a question of whether The Bear blinked, as much as when the world realized he blinked.

The tanks that invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia were Russian. The tanks in Poland were Polish. The Soviets tried to impose their will by proxy, but Jaruzelski could not indefinitely sustain the pretense of martial law to "prevent Soviet invasion."

The main difference between Hungary/Czechoslovakia and Poland was the presence of a strong, Polish pope. The Bear blinked, it's just that the world didn't realize it for nearly a decade.

keltic--

I wasn't giving him a pass. Just reconciling his other actions with the great misstep re the molestation. It is possible he was not due my deference in that matter. (And it is possible he was due that deference....) Just thinking out loud.

Aside--It is widely viewed that the Pope's public and unwavering alignment with Walesa and the movement kept the Russians from a more serious, bloody clampdown. Russia was not prepared to go up against the Catholic Church...still a potent force in the world.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/073445.php
Has anyone heard this?

I've heard it mentioned on CNN, FOX...alluded to by some commentators. What do you think? Was the assassination attempt tied to Russia, or is it baseless?

Ultimately Jaruzelski blinked and Poland was granted the first of the "velvet revolution state status"

I knowits an urban myth that Reagan was the "sole perp" of the demise of the USSR , but thats just not true. John Paul had the quiet confrontation that extended back to when he was archbishop of Krakow,
Breznev himself gave credit for the loss of Poland to John Paul.

John Paul was quite the world shaker. His failures were his conservatism within his own house, as well as defining a decent response to the molesting priests. Catholics ere always concerned about the lack of vocations (IMHO primarily due to the celibacy gig). I hope the next pope can see that the other Catholic churches have married priests

requiescat en pace...amen