Well, to go from the attitude that "we are all Americans" after 9/11, to what we see now in France and Germany, certainly there has been some mental manipulation of the masses by the governments and the media in those two countries (and more). The response to the attack has been absolutely the right thing to do, hindered only by a bunch of candy-asses in the U.N.
Wow! I can't believe that the European people treat the Americans like this just because of what their government is doing. I can't stand Bush, but I would never judge the American people because of it. The Americans have no say in what their government is doing, so to hate the American people is crazy. Looks like I'll never be going to Europe.
Hey, you guys can all come up here on your vacations. It's beautiful here and the people are extra friendly ;-)
Please explain what you mean by "what their government is doing". Fact of the matter is, a large majority of Americans support the war on terrorism and Iraq. We do not want to see 9/11 happen again, to us, or to you.
Everyone seems to be in agreement - Saddam is a lunatic and a threat to the entire world. Why, why, does no one but us have the guts to do anything about it. Explain.
Let me comment from a non-American, non-European point of view. I won't be nice.
In every single place in the world you can meet a lot of friendly, sensible people and a few jerks. Be it Argentina, Belgium, Canada, China, Denmark, Ethiopia, France, Germany, Holland, Iceland, Japan, Kenya, Laos, Mexico, Nepal, Oman, Peru, Qatar, Russia, Singapur, Thailand, USA, Venezuela, West Indies, Xanadu, Yemen or Zambia.
Jerks tend to stereotype and to be aggresive about it.
They also tend to think that everybody should be like them.
They can't have any empathy towards other people. So they don't try to understand them.
Stereotyping is common in Europe, as common as racism. Even if many Europeans find it difficult to assume that so many of them have such politically incorrect attitudes.
A hefty percentage of the Europeans I know stereotype Americans (and each foreign culture). A non irrelevant minority also tends to give to the peoples attributes that belong to the governments, present or past, good or bad. I've lived it.
That's an ignorant and prejudiced attitude.
Stereotyping is even more common in the USA, more common than racism. Most Americans, though, don't give to the peoples attributes that belong to the governments. Perhaps it is because the country was founded by people who were chased for their ideas. Perhaps it is that few Americans know what policy does any other foreign government pursue.
This thread seems to me like a duel of blind stubborness. I have tried to lighten it, to no avail.
Does anybody really think there has been some sort of global or regional brainwash? Come on!
Does anybody really think that in democratic countries, such as the US, France or Germany, the government can take the public opinion for a ride?
Is there no free press in those countries? Is there no free access to the most diverse sources of information and opinion?
Civic culture is different in different countries. This is obvious. The scale of values varies. This is normal. No value is absolute.
Are you ready to accept it?
Are you ready to tell a jerk from his nation?
Are you ready to understand that your neighbor may think differently than you? Or are you going to say s/he was "brainwashed" while your (superior) thoughts come from informed free will?
As for the great American sport of boycott, I gotta agree with msolga, and remember Rhett Butler last words in "Gone With The Wind".
(And please don't tell me to "Remember The Alamo": I was told so at 13, when I didn't even know what The Alamo was).
From where I sit, I see lots and lots of the American people that are against this war including myself. I was born and raised in the US. I don't judge you either way your opinion goes, so I suppose I should have phrased that statement differently. I am an agree to disagree kind of gal. I truly didn't mean anything personal.
Also, it's not about having the guts to go to war. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Canada it's against the law to attack any country who hasn't attacked us first.
Well Gezzy, some DID attack us, someone without a country, but with definite ties to Mr. Hussein. Continue.
There is no proof that he had anything to do with it. The people who attecked the US were a terrorist group. If Iraq is attacked, it's innocent people that are going to die.
Don't you ever wonder why the US was attacked in the first place? There is always more to the story than meets the eye!
Great post, fbaezer. Extra points for "Qatar."
<<some DID attack us, someone without a country, but with definite ties to Mr. Hussein.>>
Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, etc. would like you to forward proof of such right away so that they can close a sale at the UN.
(Aren't you aware of the latest RNC talking point, cj? "This war is going to introduce democracy to Iraq and backward Arab nations." Get with the program, dude.)
Hearts and minds will not work in the Arab world.
Thanks, fbaezer, for that great comment!
[I've been told to be 'brainwashed' already, so "metally manipulated" doesn't sound that hurting anymore.]
Poll in a Sydney newspaper last week. "Should Saddam be given more time to disarm?" Yes or No
No chance to vote on whether you believe its an issue or not. No questions about whether Australia should be involved.
gezzy
Quote: Don't you ever wonder why the US was attacked in the first place? There is always more to the story than meets the eye!
I have asked when people have made this statement what are these reasons for the attack and gotten zero.zippo,nada for an answer. Finally posted the question and am anxiously waiting for the reasons
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4922&highlight=
IMO the Americans that visit Europe are the higher educated and more intellectual part of the Americans. And they have a more liberal view on this world. American Backpack tourists i met in Florence(Italy) recently were as much as i opposed to the war in Iraq.
I think u dont have to fear any reactions of Europeans. We are capable of making the distinction between the American Policy and the American people.
Steissd: That Brainwashed allegation. In Europe its hard to control all the media. IMO even impossible. There is no European "Ted Turner"-equivalent. The languages and cultures differ too much.
And about the GI's giving their lives for us. How long do we have to be gratefull? Forever? We paid our share, even more than our share. What about all the jews that were safed by Belgians? What about the Belgian govt giving uranium to the US for free! The uranium they needed for their nuclear program. Where is your gratitude for that?
fbaezer wrote:
As for the great American sport of boycott
Wait a minute.... American sport???
boycott: the word's origin
By The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition
Captain Charles Cunningham Boycott was an Englishman working in Ireland. In the 1870s he was farming at Loughmask in County Mayo and serving as a land agent for an absentee English landlord, Lord Earne. This was the time of the campaign organized by the Irish Land League for reform of the system of landholdings. In September 1880, protesting tenants demanded that Captain Boycott give them a substantial reduction in their rents. He refused. Charles Stuart Parnell, the President of the Land League, suggested in a speech that the way to force Boycott to give way was for everyone in the locality to refuse to have any dealings with him. Laborers would not work for him, local shops stopped serving him (food had to be brought in from elsewhere for him and his family), and he even had great trouble getting his letters delivered. In the end, his crops were harvested that autumn through the help of fifty volunteers from the north of the country, who worked under the protection of nine hundred soldiers.
The events aroused so much passion that his name became an instant byword. It was first used - in our modern sense of collective and organized ostracism - in the Times of London in November 1880, even while his crops were still being belatedly harvested; within weeks it was everywhere. It was soon adopted by newspapers throughout Europe, with versions of his name appearing in French, German, Dutch and Russian. By the time of the Captain's death in 1897, it had become a standard part of the English language.
And the biggest boycott going is the Arab boycott of Israeli products. The United States, and I suppose other countries, need a government agency JUST to deal with the official compliance of this:
http://www.bxa.doc.gov/AntiboycottCompliance/OACAntiboycottRequestExamples.html
As to a boycott of Europe by Americans, I don't think that will happen, but there are many people who are frightened. Anyway, I've just checked on what Rick Steves is doing. This is interesting, "Think Multilaterally" stickers:
http://www.ricksteves.com/news/0211/sticker.htm
au1929
I'm waiting for the answers myself. The only thing I heard about it is that they were furious that the US military parked themselves on holy land during the Gulf War and refused to move when the war was over. I know that was a atleast a part of it, but I'm sure there's more to it than that. The US government knows why, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to be honest with us.
Hey pdiddle, I'll betcha that if we do nothing, stop the overflights and remove the no-fly zones, within 5-10 years Iraq will invade yet another of its neighbors. It's obvious from the fact they are paying the families of suicide bombers that their ultimate goal is to destroy Israel.
Most of the muslim world would like to see the destruction of Israel. How does this set Saddam apart?
Piffka,
As the British know too well, inventing a sport does not mean excelling at it.
They may have invented boycott, but Americans are kings (and queens).
Americans organize boycotts against polluters, companies that allegedly discriminate against women or ethnic minorities, or supposedly mistreat animals (cram the poor cows in overcrowded trucks before sacrificing them, for example), companies that mistreat homosexuals or treat them "too well" (this depends on the boycotting group), companies that employ illegal aliens or companies that don't pay them enough, companies that employ minors in sweatshops overseas, companies that do business with non-democratic countries, and I could keep the list going.
In America, people think that their consumer power is enough to enable social change.
I personally think that such a flourishing of consumer boycotts is the product of a culture that prefers symbolic, methaphoric individual actions, instead of political -hence, collective- organization.
On the bright side, Americans invented lynching, Guatemalans are the top practitioners now.
