What the diserters (weak of heart) don't understand.

Baldimo wrote:

That is the whole point of this thread and just about everyone missed it.

Thanks for the advice, I'll bear that in mind in future.

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No Baldimo. That was your point to this exercise and I for one didn't miss it.

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I would think it would take a lot of guts to walk away because your conscience tells you what you are about to do is wrong knowing how it is going to look to look to others.

Sometimes it does take bravery to walk away from a fight that is not worth fighting.

Having said that, I think baldimo and others who fight because they believe it is right to do either because they believe in the war or believe that they should do so because that is what they signed up for show an awesome amount of bravery.

It is liken to a passage in the bible where Paul says that if you believe it is a sin to eat meat then for you it is a sin to eat meat.

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baldimo said

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It doesn't take bravery to walk away from war, it takes a yellow streak down the middle of your back, walking away is the easy part.

Unfortunately I couldn't "walk away from war" because I was airlifted away from war. I definitely had a "yellow streak down the middle of my back" (still do) war is insane, alway was. always will be. You go right ahead and rave on baldimo it beats the hell out of having to think.

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Aw, now, Dys. "If you don't kill them then the Chinese will
If you don't want America to play second fiddle
Kill kill kill for peace
Kill kill It'll give you a big release -"

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In November, I will be at my 36 month window as an instructor, and have been advised repeatedly to be prepared for deployment to Iraq.

I had no ambivalence when I joined in 1990, right before the first Iraq war.

I have ambivalence about this one.

It's below stupid for anyone to be telling me "You need to just support your president and our country, and anyone who stands against it is a coward". BELOW stupid. I pray I never relinquish my ability to decide for myself what is right and wrong. I may never conscientiously object, but I can respect those that do, and if I go, that doesn't mean my heart will be in it.

To ponder the worth of human conflicts, and one's place in them is the kind of thing that separates us from animals.

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Well said.

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Yer a good man, Snood. I sincerely mean that.

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I don't mind debating Baldimo, he's a good man with a good heart and a brave one to boot.
But Snood, you're all of the above and more. You're a warrior with a vision. I want you guarding the walls for then I will sleep in Peace.
I don't have anymore for this thread Snood. You've said it all.

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i agree with all the above.

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snood wrote:

In November, I will be at my 36 month window as an instructor, and have been advised repeatedly to be prepared for deployment to Iraq.

I had no ambivalence when I joined in 1990, right before the first Iraq war.

I have ambivalence about this one.

It's below stupid for anyone to be telling me "You need to just support your president and our country, and anyone who stands against it is a coward". BELOW stupid. I pray I never relinquish my ability to decide for myself what is right and wrong. I may never conscientiously object, but I can respect those that do, and if I go, that doesn't mean my heart will be in it.

To ponder the worth of human conflicts, and one's place in them is the kind of thing that separates us from animals.

Would you agree that doing a change of MOS would be the smart thing to do? Or do you think turning your back on the military is the smart thing to do? I have nothing against those that don't want to fight, I have something against those that run out.

If your in a combat MOS and don't want to go kill people then make a request change jobs, become a paper pusher, cook or even become a mechanic. I don't really think they are going to keep you in a position where your lack of participation is going to get others killed, that would be below stupid.

I must ask, where are you instructing, Paris Island or MCRD San Diego? Since you said instructiong, I'm going to assume that you are a Marine. The Army doesn't have drill instructers, we have drill Sgt's.

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I'm not in a combat MOS - my problem with this war has nothing to do with whether or not I'd have to personally butt-stroke someone to the head.

You obviously think that it's a "you're with us, or you're agin us" type thing.

We don't have much grounds on which to communicate.

I instruct soldier/medics.

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snood wrote:

I'm not in a combat MOS - my problem with this war has nothing to do with whether or not I'd have to personally butt-stroke someone to the head.

You obviously think that it's a "you're with us, or you're agin us" type thing.

We don't have much grounds on which to communicate.

I instruct soldier/medics.

All he had to do was look at where your location is to know you were either army or AF.
Besides,you are to well spoken to be a marine...LOL

I was an instructor an the navy corpsman school in Sd for a while.
I enjoyed it,but it sure got boring.
Do you have your EFMB?
I got mine in 1989.It was the toughest training and testing I ever had to go thru,but it was worth it.

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snood wrote:

I'm not in a combat MOS - my problem with this war has nothing to do with whether or not I'd have to personally butt-stroke someone to the head.

You obviously think that it's a "you're with us, or you're agin us" type thing.

We don't have much grounds on which to communicate.

I instruct soldier/medics.

Your at Fort Sam Houston, I have quite a few buddies that have gone there, maybe you have instructed a few of them.

I'm not a "with us or against us" person. I get angry with the people who run to Canada to avoid serving and up holding their agreement. I could careless about their feelings about war or if they like the president. They signed up they serve, it is black and white.

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Quote:

I'm not a "with us or against us" person. I get angry with the people who run to Canada to avoid serving and up holding their agreement. I could careless about their feelings about war or if they like the president. They signed up they serve, it is black and white

Agreed. I have worked for many years in an organisation which as part of the terms and conditions of employment makes it perfectly clear to anyone who wishes to join that as part of their employment they may be required to serve anywhere in the state, in the country or overseas - no it's not the military. People join well knowing that they may be transferred against their will to another location. Despite that they will go to court if they are ordered to transfer (which for various reasons doesn't happen that often). They sign up then try to fight the order later.

If you join the military then you are subject to orders.

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goodfielder wrote:

Quote:
I'm not a "with us or against us" person. I get angry with the people who run to Canada to avoid serving and up holding their agreement. I could careless about their feelings about war or if they like the president. They signed up they serve, it is black and white

Agreed. I have worked for many years in an organisation which as part of the terms and conditions of employment makes it perfectly clear to anyone who wishes to join that as part of their employment they may be required to serve anywhere in the state, in the country or overseas - no it's not the military. People join well knowing that they may be transferred against their will to another location. Despite that they will go to court if they are ordered to transfer (which for various reasons doesn't happen that often). They sign up then try to fight the order later.

If you join the military then you are subject to orders.

You must work for a State Patrol agency then. I'm applying for the Colorado State Patrol as we speak. Not looking forward to the possible moving, but it is part of the job!

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Yes in Australia we only have state agencies, no county or municipal. Good luck with CSP I'm told they have a very good rep.

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I'm not a huge fan of any war, particularly this one. I'm a pacifist and I think that peace is to be treasured where possible. However, if I enlist as a soldier I've promised to do a duty with people counting on me.

Failing to uphold those promises or the chain of command could get a lot of people hurt or killed. These will be people who have counted on me and trusted me who whose trust would be betrayed by my actions if I back out at the last minute.

I feel sympathy for the kid who deserted, he joined up in a highly emotional state based on a desire for revenge which he never saw. No wonder he wanted to leave it all, but there are points in time at which we are bound by our prior actions and agreements. I say that this should be a lesson about joining up for the right and wrong reasons.

Late edit: My feelings on conscription are somewhat different.

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Hi Watchmakers and welcome to A2K. I couldn't agree more. Coming from a family that I think has had members in the military who have served in every war in which the U.S. has been involved since the Revolution, I can't think of any one of them who has relished war or who relishes war or thinks it as being anything other than an abomination of humankind.

At the same time--and a true pacifist might not agree--I think all understood that the absence of war is not necessarily peace for millions of people. They understand that in so many cases there is peace purely because men were willing to do violence to achieve it.

All agree that the best possible outcome of war is for it to be overwhelming, quick, decisive, and for the victor to be magnanimous in victory.

Any who join the military for security, opportunity, or for any reason that does not include a willingness to do violence for the purpose of a higher good has joined for the wrong reasons. And, as I've stated before, once the soldier takes his oath, he can and must make value decisions of legality in the conduct of his duties, but it is not for him to otherwise challenge authority in what his duties will be nor in what a military action is for. He is to do his duty because if he does not, he puts all who depend on him at higher risk. And there is no way he can morally justify that.

The volunteer army ensures that most are there with the right attitude and for the right reasons I think. The true conscientious objector can serve his/her country in different ways and not all are called to be soldiers. (Most of us have to work and pay taxes that fund the national defense.) I know it sounds trite, but it is nevertheless still true that all the freedoms and privileges and potential that we enjoy were secured not by pacifists or great thinkers or social engineers or governments or judges. They were secured by men ready and able to do violence on our behalf. And I thank God for them.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I can't think of any one of them who has relished war or who relishes war or thinks it as being anything other than an abomination of humankind.

IMHO that's what all soldiers should be like.

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At the same time--and a true pacifist might not agree--I think all understood that the absence of war is not necessarily peace for millions of people. They understand that in so many cases there is peace purely because men were willing to do violence to achieve it.

There are times when non-violence can achieve your goals, Ghandi was an amazing example. At the same time, had Ghandi been a jew in world war II germany I think his results would have been somewhat different. Sometimes war becomes necessary, it's sad but true.

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All agree that the best possible outcome of war is for it to be overwhelming, quick, decisive, and for the victor to be magnanimous in victory.

I agree one hundred percent.

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once the soldier takes his oath, he can and must make value decisions of legality in the conduct of his duties, but it is not for him to otherwise challenge authority in what his duties will be nor in what a military action is for.

This is why I don't join the army. I couldn't feel justified in being sent to a war in Iraq, but I would have to if I were a soldier. I'm considering joining a branch of the reserves that only gets called up if the country is invaded though. A cause much easier to believe in.

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I know it sounds trite, but it is nevertheless still true that all the freedoms and privileges and potential that we enjoy were secured not by pacifists or great thinkers or social engineers or governments or judges. They were secured by men ready and able to do violence on our behalf. And I thank God for them.

Well yeah but the soldiers are rarely the ones who thought them up. Let's just say that both are important.

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What the diserters (weak of heart) don't understand.

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