Reply
Tue 4 Mar, 2003 09:39 am
On the several occasions when I've discussed this topic over at Abuzz, the people over there who profess "faith" get so angry with the argument I am making, that things break down before any real discussion can occur. I understand the reasons for their anger, but the topic -- and my take on it -- is worthy of consideration.
I hope we have better luck here.
It seem to me that "faith" is little more than blind acceptance -- and that "faith" is a much over-rated human enterprise.
Essentially, expressing a "belief" (a guess or estimation about the unknown) and then insisting that belief is right to the exclusion of any other possibilities (having faith in it) is more a vice than a virtue -- more a failing than an asset.
I understand this may seem like an insult, but it is not intended that way. It is an observation -- and I'd really like to see it discussed thoroughly.
Comments?
Frank Apisa- I have PLENTY to say on this subject- But I have to run now. Back later!
faith, as i understand it, is the belief that something is true when evidence suggests it is wrong. or, don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up.
Faith definition from Websters. In my opinion when related to religion 2b [1] fills the bill
[code][B]": firm belief in something for which there is no proof "[/B][/code]1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF
- in faith : without doubt or question : VERILY
I think as far as faith related to religion it has become distorted and abused. I'm not religious so I guess I have a bit of a different take on the word. When I think of faith I tend to more think of trusting that life will continue on and bring good things at some point or another even if there seems to be no proof or hope of it at points. I don't think "religious faith" is always really faith but can consist more of striving to sustain dogmatic and/or ignorant ways in the face of more less ignorant and tolerant ways.
I appreciate all the responses so far. I'd really like to give more people an opportunity to talk before getting back in.
Faith to me is totally personal and very important!
Faith is never having to ask why.
Webster's definition, IMO, describes faith in the most accurate way. If we refer to religion, it is impossible to prove or disprove existence of God. Some people believe, some do not. Unless differences in approach to theism/atheism/agnosticism are accompanied with violence, I am OK with it.
IMO, conservative Christians have the same rights to express their opinions and to have influence on the country's policies (do not forget, they are citizens, voters and taxpayers), as the liberal atheists/agnostics do.
Nor do they have more rights!
Faith is a belief. I believe that Newton's laws are correct and accurate.
I have faith in Newton and Newton's laws, since there is considerable evidence to support these laws.
Belief is not knowledge, but it is acceptance.
Well, Newton's laws represent particular example of more general laws of the relativist mechanics of Albert Einstein. But the Conservation Laws really have no rational explanation. They just work for obviously unknown reason (well, people that believe in God, may consider that these are basic features of matter granted by the Creator).
Chemistry, physics and biology:
If you don't know Newton's laws and have a "faith" in them, you'll be denied a grade of A by the Prof.
Faith is trust. My trust is confident belief. When I believe in Jesus Christ, I'm saying that I have placed my eternal hope and trust in the work and life of Jesus and what he did on the cross. It is not my good works, ability, or merit, I simply trust Jesus and have faith in Jesus.
Well, New Haven, I do know Newton's laws. I studied them in 1977 in high school and still remember them. There is no need to believe in them, BTW, they can be very easily checked experimentally.
Why do people of "faith" insist that only they are in possession of "the truth"?
nelsonn, not all people are this way - sadly. As I said in the beginning, my "faith" is personnel - I will share it and you may have it, but it isn't for sale nor is it a must have! I pray that everyone will have their own; but, not a requirement.
This is so sticky; I agree with Steissd' position; a scientific fact can be prooved or disprooved and relies on reason and logic. The older I get I start to wince when people talk to me about vodoo, charts, astrological projections; I try to keep an open mind ,but that means to me, a rational mind. I have friends in several other faiths, and there have been times when their beliefs have caused rifts. I have trouble believing Jesus will come back out of the sky and save those of faith. Wouldn't Jesus also like the Buddhists? They're affable enough. I tend to lookat the Bible as a metephor of spiritual realities; The Book of Revelation is tough to swallow literally; but i am considering accepting it as some sort of metephorical projection on the fate of humans.
Sometimes faith seems healthy, sometimes it doesn't...like when it acts as a "Spiritual Plecebo". I'm told "God loves everyone", so he gave us each other, then there are things like The Inquisition, the Holocaust, and watching The Twin towers fall; those of faith say "the Lord works in Mysterious ways" as an explanantion; but that type of faith doesn't work for me. I think there are just crazy killers on the loose, and most things get down to money; the lord hasn't anything to do with it. I do think, however , under grave circumstances , a faith helps center all your beliefs, and choose a course of action to find an optimal outcome. You have to believe in something, just to make it through this screwy world.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but this is a slippery topic. Thanks for all your posts, fuel for thought.
Colorific, I thought your post was very relevant. The idea of God has never appealed to me when he is invoked as a possession by a particular religion.
I do find it interesting that the Iranian hostages who were most able to survive their captivity and the aftermath, were those of strong religious faith. As you said, "You have to believe in something."
I think most of us who have some form of religion, usually a kind of amalgam of many different religions, have come to have faith in a collective intelligence or conciousness that doesn't discriminate, a sort of humanist philosophy.
I have faith in the basic goodness of people and in the laws of nature. I'm sure the sun will appear in the east tomorrow.
Diane;
That makes sense to me: "... an amalgam of many differnet religions.." And I do have faith in a collective consciousness; I use that word often (when discussing art and it's delineage).
I think God is there, especially when things are dangerous and tough, and I think of all those people through out history who fought in wars, and how their faith was involved