Let's discuss this thing called "FAITH!"

Natural selection isn't "planned" at all. In fact, in strictly logical terms, survival of the fittest is based on pure chance. Mutations (evolution if you will) in species are occurring all the time and only some of them are adaptive to the environment. It happens all over the place all the way from a sperm to the President.

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There is an awful lot of accident involved in evolution. We are experimenting and tinkering with evolution when we create a new breed of cat or a new patented rose. How far we go with this gets into the Frankenstein dilemma. I understand there are scientists abroad that want to cross a pig with a human. Hey, we've already got those running the country -- we don't need any more.

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Sofi and LW, I find no conflict between evolution and creationism.

Basically, if some superior being or beings created this planet complete with oceans, vegetation, fishes etc., mineral, bird, and animal and whatever else I've missed (except man), and also created us all (as spirit) and these wayward spirits created themselves on this planet: How could we all have done that so many eons ago?

Don't you think we, in spirit form, are able to do this, create? Probably, the being or beings who created us as spirit and/or this planet, is very kind for destroying man only a few times.. Imagine the different forms, the messes we've made, before someone stepped in to assist us with this beautiful body that we now have. I think "we" are extremely lucky to be alive, that we have come this far and still have unbelievable potential.

How far do you suppose we have to fall, should we truly goof up?

I've read a few books on "evolution" and found that Darwin never said man came from a monkey. He seemed to feel devastated that he felt he truly must present exactly what he found., that there is somehow a connection. I didn't, however, find that he eliminated the spiritual. Is that the religious? I have no idea. It would seem to me the only answer would be found in the spiritual, not the religious nor the science. Somehow, both?

I have faith man will solve the puzzle of our origin and destiny before someone blows up the planet.

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Tex-Star--

Glad you said that.

Evolution doesn't blow my spirituality out of the water, either.
I just find it odd that some people (no one, in particular) find it so easy to dismiss the faith involved in 'religion', but won't cop to the faith involved in accepting Darwinism. The link from ape to human just hasn't been proven, to me.

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I'm lucky.

I'm an agnostic when it comes to religion.

I'm an agnostic when it comes to science.

Whenever there is insistence on the part of religion or science that either discipline has answers for some of the Ultimate Questions about REALITY -- I cringe.

Better for the world -- better for society -- and better for each individual that the words "I do not know" stop being such an enemy.

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There is a difference between what faith should be and what faith is.

Faith, as the old saying goes, is supposed to be believing where you cannot prove. Unfortunately, Mark Twain was closer to the truth with "Faith is believing what you know ain't true." Faith is not an alternative to knowledge and when something is demonstrably false, all the faith in the world won't make it true. It won't make up be down, it won't make large be small and it won't make something that doesn't exist, exist. Anyone who believes what is demonstrably false is a fool. Just as an unexamined life isn't worth living, an unexamined belief isn't worth holding, but far too many people prefer a comforting lie to an uncomfortable truth.

It's one thing to have faith in something that cannot be demonstrated. It's another to go to war over it, torture and kill people because of it and demand that the world bend to your will because of your faith. Faith is an intensely personal thing but it shouldn't make you stupid. If it turns out that the thing you have faith in is wrong, stop believing. To do otherwise is to make yourself unworthy of your so-called intelligence.

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Re: faith

Quote:

Do you have faith in Darwin's Theory, without having seen or read documented evidence of the missing link? Do you base a pretty heavy belief in the world and evolution and the origin of man on something you have not seen?

Science is the antithesis of faith. If you have faith in science, you're doing something wrong. Science is about observation, logic and deduction. I don't have to believe that evolution occurred, I can examine the evidence for myself. Anyone who simply believes something without comprehending it is a fool IMO.

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Thank you, Cephus and welcome to A2K! Someone still can't get there head off Darwin not ever saying man was descended from a monkey or ape. Blind faith in science? I don't think so -- one of the characteristics of a good scientist is that they are sceptical. Religious faiths generally won't allow scepticism and cynicism is anathema. It's all wrapped up in an incomprehensible naivity.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Thank you, Cephus and welcome to A2K! Someone still can't get there head off Darwin not ever saying man was descended from a monkey or ape. Blind faith in science? I don't think so -- one of the characteristics of a good scientist is that they are sceptical. Religious faiths generally won't allow scepticism and cynicism is anathema. It's all wrapped up in an incomprehensible naivity.

That's because not one single scientist has *EVER* said that man descended from an ape. That's a purposeful creationist misrepresentation.

Man and apes came from a common ancestor. Man evolved one direction, apes another. The fact that man and chimps are 98.6% genetically identical demonstrates quite well the commonality in our background.

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We covered that territory but some don't want to take the hike up the mountain of knowledge. They prefer the small foothills of knowledge.

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(They are even more perplexed at the idea of being descended from aquarian life! That really makes them feel gillty). I know, shameless pun.

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Lightwizard wrote:

We covered that territory but some don't want to take the hike up the mountain of knowledge. They prefer the small foothills of knowledge.

Of course not, it's easier to have fantasy spoon-fed to you than to actually have to get off your backside and learn something. It's amazing how ridiculously wrong people can be when talking about science, and professional creationists prey on that kind of ignorance. Even after being caught in bald-faced lies over and over and over again, creationsts still get people believing them because they don't appeal to reality, but to the religious fantasies that have an emotional appeal. Sure, it feels good to be 'special', but as I've said before, a comforting lie is still a lie.

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It doesn't require that anyone who takes comfort in religious faith to admit that Genesis can easily be reconciled with an Earth billions of years old. That was brought out in the famous Monkey Trial by Clarence Darrow.

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Faith doesn't even require that you have a religion or believe in any man made concepts!

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Somebody called me a worm the other day.
I wasn't sure if he was correct or not, so I did some research.
Apparently not all worms and humans are closely related, but look... we have a cousin!

Man's cousin at bottom of fjord

THEY wrote:

A TINY worm that lives in the mud at the bottom of Swedish fjords has been revealed as mankind's long-lost cousin.

British scientists have discovered that Xenoturbella bocki, a 25cm-long creature whose Latin name means strange flatworm, is the closest-known invertebrate relative of human beings.

Genetic analysis has shown the worm, which was thought to belong to the group of molluscs that includes oysters and mussels, is in fact part of the same division of the animal kingdom as mankind and all other vertebrates.

I took the article to my friend and asked "Did you mean that I was a flatworm?" It's eerie because most species share 98% of their genetic structure with each other anyways so a worm to one person, who knows, middle-management to somebody else. It's better than being a mollusc!

When the FBI starts up their National DNA Registry I hope they include samples from all the various species. I think my brother is actually a boar.

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Frank, nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" when it comes to these topics. But, people are all in different places and have the right to say whatever they are believing at the time.

Cephus, why don't you get off that stupid cross, that is disgusting. It is possible to learn from the acts of others without worshiping the actor. To "pick up your cross and follow me" only means "I showed you how, told you who & what you are, now you go solve your own problems." Other profits since that time have told us more. Anyhow, at any given time in old Rome there were hundreds of people hanging from those things.

Anybody see that movie Gangs of New York? Yikes!
Not too far from old Rome or Nazism or Sadam Hussein, or the wild wild west. But, we've come a long way since the flat worm.

Codeborg, I read a book in early 70s called The Back Yard Garden, all about what bugs and such do to each other. Then, there are the furry caterpillars that become beautiful butterflies. Gads, miracles abound. But, I can just bet those butterflies don't hold court in the grass trying to teach those crawling hopping things how to build a cocoon.

Frank, I',m not sure I agree with you about the "I don't know." Maybe we just shouldn't close our mind around ANY knowledge, as in reaching a comfy plateau where we try to convert others to same. Maybe that is OK, too but "example" is better. What do I know.

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Thanks for your post, Tex Star. I appreciate your observations.

A comment or two in response, if I may:

Tex-Star wrote:

Frank, nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" when it comes to these topics. But, people are all in different places and have the right to say whatever they are believing at the time.

I have no problem whatever with people "believing" things and sharing what they "believe."

But keep in mind that the one thing a "belief" IS NOT -- is KNOWLEDGE.

A belief is essentially a statement about something UNKNOWN.

Mostly, beliefs are guesses -- estimates, probability calculations, suppositions and coin tosses.

Truly, if a person whats to "believe" he can teach an elephant to pole vault -- who am I to say he cannot have that belief.

That is not -- and never has been -- the issue with me.

You wrote:

Quote:

Frank, I',m not sure I agree with you about the "I don't know." Maybe we just shouldn't close our mind around ANY knowledge, as in reaching a comfy plateau where we try to convert others to same. Maybe that is OK, too but "example" is better. What do I know.

When I say "I do not know" -- I am simply acknowledging that I do not know.

I am not suggesting that we should not investigate and research -- because I am an advocate of all that.

But the stuff we do not know -- we should simply acknowledge that we do not know it.

If you ever get the impression that I am saying we should "close our minds" in any way -- re-read what I have said to lead you to that conclusion. There is no way that I am advocating closing our minds in any way.

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Frank, sorry, I was not directing the "close our minds..." sentence towards you. If anybody has a closed mind, well, it wouldn't be you.

A good description of a closed mind could be someone who can't learn something new because they still hold onto outdated info received in youth.
Don't know that there are many with closed minds here on this forum.

Good thread.

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Thanks for those thoughts, Tex.

I think most of the people in this forum are willing to listen and consider -- but as with the world at large, most of us have reached our personal philosophy after much consideration -- and we are not likely to change our minds as a result of arguments made here.

I like to consider myself intelligently stubborn!!!

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Sofia wrote:

Tex-Star--

Glad you said that.

Evolution doesn't blow my spirituality out of the water, either.
I just find it odd that some people (no one, in particular) find it so easy to dismiss the faith involved in 'religion', but won't cop to the faith involved in accepting Darwinism. The link from ape to human just hasn't been proven, to me.

Sofia, I'm trying to answer, really I am. Can't see where we would be without Darwin's source and information gathering, just as the Englishmen who traveled around the world drawing maps, or Italian Marco Polo who described "The East" even when people wouldn't believe half of what he said. That would be much like having no record of Jesus' short life here. I just don't think religion and science stand alone. Maybe spirituality could be the link, but would have to be supported and proven by the science community. It was no scientist who said "we are what we eat," but science checked it out, found it so, and we all benefit.

Maybe science would first have to prove we are spirits in human form. I have faith that will happen. That word, faith, does come in handy doesn't it?

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Let's discuss this thing called "FAITH!"

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