Let's discuss this thing called "FAITH!"

Faith is something that requires practice, I would think. I can only choose to have faith, even when looking square in the face of adversity or horror. I can make a decision to have faith that this adversity or horror will pass. I can have faith that should I roll with the punches rather than respond with revenge or blatant hatred that I at least may learn something more about myself, and move from there.

I don't understand religion at all, especially "religious faith." I would guess that faith is a knowing that for everything there is a purpose. There is a tiny book called "The Other Side of the Sun (where lamb & wolf abide)" by Madeleine L'Engle. How do we get through the searing heat of the sun (you can't go 'round it nor over it) unless we KNOW there is (at least comfort) on the other side. We have to choose to think in this way, to keep up the faith, else, how do we live?

Remember when Skywalker jumped off the side of the world when Darth Vader suggested both of them were the same? Didn't somebody catch Skywalker? Takes a lot of faith to sail into nothingness rather than stay with the nasty.

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truth
All I have to say about the nature of "faith" I said on March 9, section 3.

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Tex-Star wrote:

Takes a lot of faith to sail into nothingness rather than stay with the nasty.

Or, you read ahead in the script Cool

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truth
On the other hand, it takes a lot of "faith" (as I defined it on March 9th) to stay with the nasty rather than escape into the nothingness (death where one has ABSOLUTELY no complaints). There is a kind of "nothingness" (or emptiness, "sunyata") that zen students seek to know as an escape from the "nastiness" (sorrow or "dukkha") of life. But THAT is a delusional goal, to my mind. With time some of them realize that the so-called nastiness is itself empty, not something to flee from but, rather, to embrace. Consider Nietzsche's Amor Fati.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

With time some of them realize that the so-called nastiness is itself empty, not something to flee from but, rather, to embrace. Consider Nietzsche's Amor Fati.

JLN, how does one embrace emptiness? Or, did you mean one should, or choose to, embrace nastiness? I would guess we "embrace nastiness" when we agree to even live a life. No pieces of cake around here the last time I looked. Which is the meaning of The Other Side of the Sun. There IS a good place to get to, the other side where lamb and wolf abide. I do have faith that place is indeed there.

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I try to encompass, to the best of my ability - serenity:

"God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference."

If something goes out of "whack", it is usually withing these very important parameters. For me, the KISS principle is essential. Get life too complicated and I spin off, out of control!

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JLN, found your March 9 post. So, true, "faith" is an attitude that I think is alive in some, asleep in others. If we don't think we can do something, won't even bother to draw a road map there, it's certain we'll never arrive there.

BillW, we sure do get ourselves in trouble trying to change someone else. But, as you know, we can be a living example, or tell them how we extricated ourselves from some mess (should they ask). They would have to ask.

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Re: faith

JLNobody wrote:

Fisihin. The faith in the rise of the sun tomorrow is an assumption based on experience; it is therefore a rational, or reasonable, belief. But I don't think "faith" (i.e., belief) in the existence of a god, is at all reasonable in this sense since it is not based on ANY experience. This is why theologians always base their arguments for the existence of god on DEDUCTION from assumed principles. They do not derive their conclusions INDUCTIVELY from experience.

Do you have faith in Darwin's Theory, without having seen or read documented evidence of the missing link? Do you base a pretty heavy belief in the world and evolution and the origin of man on something you have not seen?

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What missing link? There are discoveries in the last twenty years of hundreds of so-called "missing links," but those of fundamental religious beliefs (or more, accurately, antiquated beliefs) choose to ignore.

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I think it can be said that the theory is strong, universally accepted and unproven.

"Lucy" was a fraud. A monkey. Point to the reference that makes you a believer in Darwinism, please. Maybe you can convince me.

Otherwise, religions and Darwinism require 'blind faith.'

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"Lucy" was not the only discovery and was not "a monkey." Where you got that information I have no idea -- evolution does not require blind faith, it requires extensive reading and an understanding of the science. My courses in paleontology and anthropology in university sure woke me up to the facts. Since I've continued to keep abreast and in order for someone else to do likewise, they'd actually have to check books out of the library and read.

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No need to be insulting. Do have a dog-eared library card, but also have a serious memory impairment. I read books on the subject, and though it sounds stupid I admit, there is no evidence of man's evolution from ape.

There are indicators, really smart guys saying it is so--and it has been accepted by virtually everyone. But there are no half-man/half apes--none seen, none dug up. I remember reading about Lucy and Leakey--though I need a brush up. I also remember (even more vaguely) one or two "faked" finds, where a human bone had been grafted into an ape skeleton.

If this evolution took place, shouldn't there be plenty of skeletons to prove it? We got dino skeletons, all manner of fossilized bones... I assert that the odds that there is not one single example of the man/ape skeleton is too bizarre a statistic, and those believing in Darwinism do so with a pretty strong faith in the unseen and unproven.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying it is easy to dismiss someone by telling them to read a book... I'm asking those who believe in Darwin's theory to present the proof he was right.

edit-- My point isn't to refute Darwinism, but to show those who believe it are exhibiting faith.

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That was Piltdown Man -- a classic fake that was revealed many, many years ago. What books have you read on evolution may I ask? We are technically man/ape -- the chimpanzee is no more than a slight percentage different than we are physiologically. It's the human egotism that fuels the denial of evolution. There wasn't just Lucy that was uncovered in the same African locale, it was an entire tribe of primates. You are completely off in saying that faith is what evolutionist rely on to prove the fact of evolution. You can choose to believe that bizaar statement.

As to being insulted, it appears you are attesting to the fact that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I'm not going to assign any homework for someone who obviously has just made a statement that is based on very limited reading on the subject and a poor memory.

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Since you are better read and endowed with superior memory (sincere congratulations), perhaps it would be easy for you to jot a sentence or two describing the proof of Darwinism? What fact did it for you? Questions are asked about proof of religion all the time. I don't think asking it of Darwinism is so different.

I don't know. I'd need more proof than the Leakey finds. Or, I'd have to exercise a level of faith in the belief, in the absence of absolute proof. Leakey also found some group of bones that led him to assert there had possibly been a line of now extinct humans.

My reading did center on the two Leakeys and Lucy. It was interesting, but led to more questions for me, not a solid answer.

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Okay, I was getting a little too aggressive here -- I am extremely well read on the subject and I don't ask anyone for "proof" of religion. Proof of the existance of a God of their understanding, perhaps, knowing that is a loaded question. What led me to accept evolution as a science? Actually reading Darwin which I've found many claim they have done but have not -- they couldn't get past the first few pages because they could not understand the text. It frosts me when someone asks if I've read the Bible when I've read it more times than I've read Darwin! I had many epiphanies when reading "Origin of the Species" and realizing that Darwin was devoutly religious wondered why he would write such a book. What do you think?

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BTW, reading "The Voyage of the Beagle" as a child with my Mom was truly an experience -- and to this day, she is very spiritual but does not put any credence in the Old Testament. She gets a good laugh watching "The Ten Commandments" as I do.

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Quote:

Science is a differential equation. Religion is a boundary condition.
Alan Turing

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Lightwizard wrote:

"Lucy" was not the only discovery and was not "a monkey." Where you got that information I have no idea -- evolution does not require blind faith, it requires extensive reading and an understanding of the science. My courses in paleontology and anthropology in university sure woke me up to the facts. Since I've continued to keep abreast and in order for someone else to do likewise, they'd actually have to check books out of the library and read.

Evolution is still considered a scientific threory right?
It's "The Theory of Evolution " correct?

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BTW, if there's any book I'd recommend in anyone's library that would help the lay person understand evolution and promote further reading on the subject, it would be The Encyclopedia of Evolution by Richard Milner. Just reading the forward by Stephen Jay Gould gets ones intellect fueled up.

I don't required faith in any one entity to accept evolution -- there's overwhelming evidence that the mechanism works and that's why their are three theological schools in the United States that now teach evolution.

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The Creationist want to perpetuate "the theory of evolution." It's no longer a theory. Carl Sagan said that as far back as his "Cosmos" and did a brief exposition in the series of why it is true.

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Let's discuss this thing called "FAITH!"

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